Ability to learn vs Ability to be taught using current methods - discuss?

[lougle]

DD2's teacher said to me yesterday that DD2 'can't count money'. I acknowledged this, mentioned 'abstract concept', etc.

Today, I had this conversation:
'By the way, DD2 really isn't secure in her number bonds to ten, or counting in tens to 100. She might appear to be, because she can chant them fluently in and out of order, but she can't use them to answer questions. When asked what 20+10 was, she said '35', etc.'
Teacher: I know.
Me: 'Great. I thought you would know, but felt I should let you know that I know, and that it concerns me.'
Teacher: 'I asked her to explain how she got to her answer the other day and it was....pheww....couldn't understand her at all.'
Me: 'Yes, she isn't even grasping the concepts. I'm very worried. Year 3 is going to be a disaster for her....'
Teacher: 'I know, me too.'

Teacher: 'Oh well there will be a group of children with her who have a similar ability. [my emphasis]

Now, the issue I have is that I don't believe that DD2 is of low ability. At all. I believe that standard teaching methods are unsuitable for her and she needs explicit, direct teaching of each concept and explicit, direct teaching of how each concept links to the next.

So it's no good teaching her number bonds. She needs to be taught that this helps us add two numbers which total 10.

Then, she needs to be taught that we can use the number bonds to make sums easier.

Then, she needs to be taught explicitly that 2p is the same as 2 x 1p. Then, that 5p is the same as 5 x 1p, etc.

They don't seem to understand that DD2 is not going to learn by osmosis.

I've been warning her year 1 teacher of this since this time last year, and her current teacher since September.

I don't know how to start to fix this, because so far she's not even on an IEP and they shuffle if I mention SEN/SN.

I know that a girl in Y6 has really struggled and the SENCO hasn't even been involved, so I'm streets ahead just by having SENCO on the radar

See....DD2 does have a desire to please, but only when she realises she's in a situation where pleasing will get a reaction she likes.

So at home, if I go over the top to praise her for something, she'll repeat it to get more praise. But it doesn't lead to a sustained change in behaviour, it's just a burst of motivation. To trigger another burst, I have to start all over again if that makes sense.

DD2 thinks so differently - her thought processes are entirely logical, but miss the point hugely. Example being the time that she said she got all her maths wrong because she couldn't decide if dragonflies was better than Mrs H. To her, the fact that she was thinking quietly was what mattered. It escaped her that she shouldn't have been thinking of that at all!

I would say they've probably got her attention less than 30% of the time, and that 30% is very poorly used.

zzzzz I hear you, but I'm thinking of the longer term here - I cannot sustain the sort of teaching DD2 needs unless I HE her. I really can't. The afternoons are full-on and DD2 won't concentrate if her sisters are bombing around like loonies, and I can't keep DD1 safe if I'm holed up with DD2.

I need the school to realise what's going on, then I can supplement their efforts with her. I can't replace 30 hours of school each week.

At the moment unless she's prompted, she doesn't use finger spaces, she doesn't use punctuation, she doesn't write coherent sentences, etc., etc.,

She's learning about Holland right now. She calls it 'Ho-land'. Even though she hears the word 'Holland' at least 40 times a day.

A social desire to please means an innate desire to please (without it being made explicit or for reward) that motivates the child to modify their behaviour and to prioritize the wishes of another (CT, parent) and therefore defer to them and follow their instructions rather than doing what they want to do at that time.

What is DD2 like if she is asked to do something, particularly if she doesn't want to or it means stopping something that she would rather be doing? Does she understand that an instruction to all your DC also means her? Do you have to repeat yourself over and over? Does she make excuses? Is she always just doing something else?

Otoh the enthusiastic response to reward may make a token reward system extremely motivating. The lack of generalisation can be a problem otherwise but with an effective TRS you can withdraw the reward and the targeted behaviour remain in place. I did this with DS2 - morning routine took one term. Now he is faultless during the week without any reward but does not get dressed at weekends - at all I have started using the TRS to apply to dressing at weekends.

btw Ho-Land is offensive to Dutch people

Im marking my place, don't have the answer, but interested in what others have to say.

I feel like im going in circles at times too.

School might do it once they realise how much work it will save them. Could you offer to go in and train the TA help work with a small group?

Big Honk.

zzzzz I can't believe that yet. I have to have faith that they will try to help her. She has a right to an education and they have an obligation to educate her. She has a right to an adequate education - that's all I'm asking. It might just mean that adequate for her is not the same as adequate for the majority of other children.

Keep -DD2 is quite passive by nature and outbursts are only normally triggered when she's asked to do something she doesn't want to do, or she's stopped from doing something she wants to do.

"What is DD2 like if she is asked to do something, particularly if she doesn't want to or it means stopping something that she would rather be doing?"
She'll often passively do what she's asked (i.e. she does it, quietly, but doesn't often look like she wants to, it just doesn't occur to her to say no). However, if she's asked to do something she doesn't want to do/stopped she'll shout at us (just now she's shouted at DD3 because she stood in the way of the TV, and has accused me of not loving her because I turned the TV off for 2 minutes because she hurt DD3).

She's getting more vehement about things she dislikes/likes and much more shouty. She'll get quite aggressive with her sisters, but has very rarely got physical with DH and I.

"Does she understand that an instruction to all your DC also means her?
No. It's a real problem at home, that I have to cue her in separately. Last week I was sat next to her, looking at her, and asked if she'd like cheese on her pasta bake. She said 'Who? Me?' She couldn't infer that I was talking to her from my body language and the fact that I was directing the question to her.

On the other hand, she also reacts in the opposite way, and takes comments she hears as relevant to her when they aren't. E.g. teacher talking to a small group of children, telling them to make sure they read at home that evening, meant that we ended up reading both of her reading books cover to cover because she didn't realise the teacher wasn't talking to her.

Do you have to repeat yourself over and over?
Always. I have to say her name several times to break into her 'world' and keep repeating myself.

Does she make excuses? Is she always just doing something else?
Yes, always. When she does respond she's sluggish and reluctant.

Being there and doing something will work far better than anything you 'tell'. Montessori method for grown-ups . Shifts the teacher conversation from 'a group with similar ability' to a 'group with similar learning needs'. Or 'gaps', or even 'style'. Or whatever that teacher uses.

"DS, mummy's eyes are looking at ds, so mummy means "

Hahaha Maria, the number of times I say that! 'Yes, DD2, I'm looking at you.'

If you don't know that people use eye gaze to signify the person they're talking to, it's logical to assume nothing they say is relevant to you, or to try out the theory that everything is.

A lot of the added implicit meaning is dependent on the understanding and use of non-verbal communication.

Because DC don't use eye gaze as nonverbal communication they miss a lot of communication - even if they are listening with their ears.

I do understand you, zzzzz but if I don't try then I'm buying into the notion that you either have to be really 'severe' to get help, or to be causing the educators a problem.

DD1 goes to special school to be educated. Not babysat. That right was hard won by campaigners many years ago.

Why should DD2 have a lesser education because she will sit still when she's told to (even if she fidgets quietly)? Why should she have a lesser education because she can't absorb the teaching as it's delivered?

I might joyfully HE her if given the opportunity. But I'll be damned if I HE her because school won't teach her!

Often schools don't KNOW how to help, and the refusal to adopt evidence based practice in the UK in favour of political dogma presented as absolute truth means that many children are failed. Ofsted for all it's hi-falutin' ideals does such an abysmal job of SEN quality control that it beggars belief. It's honestly not fit for purpose in this regard.

Until this changes parents have to DIY. The sad thing is that I have met so many adults who only really started gaining an education after they finally left school and were at last able to access methods & formats of education that were accessible to them. The years wasted is shocking.

For many schools the aim is not to educate but to herd manage SN kids within the school environment. That's not fair, just or right but it is the situation as it stands in the UK today.

Social issues are 'plastered' with dragonflies, IMO. It's a short term thing which will end with the expectation that the child will be a 'useful contributor to the class'. Well....for how long? She lives for dragonflies. When it's gone, what will motivate her to attend?

My issue is this:

If she doesn't have SEN (as the SENCO implies when in the presence of professionals) then she should be able to access MS curriculum with MS teaching methods and progress.

If they were even trying to overcome her (IMO SEN) difficulties with learning, or even acknowledging them, I'd be more inclined to agree. But right now she isn't even flagged (to my knowledge) as having SEN of any kind. She's seen as a 'low ability' child. She's not. They just may as well be talking in Chinese - the teaching isn't going in.

That would have been wonderful, zzzzz.

The trouble is that DD2 truly does know her number bonds. She really does. She has flawless recall with them. The trouble is, she doesn't know what it means to her. And she doesn't know that she can then use her 'number bond facts' to help her with other maths.

Following with interest - I have no answers but worry we are going down the same road with ds. Since the introduction of the sensory diet (which has been amazing) ds is having far fewer spectacular meltdowns in school, and I think school are patting themselves on the back that they've "fixed" him because he's not causing so much disruption, even though I think he sits there with no clue what's going on a lot of the time, and is achieving below averagely despite school and all profs we've seen acknowledging how bright he is. Arghhh

Sadly few teachers no about instructional design and hoe to break down a learning objective into its component parts. This is a highly advanced skill. So they fixate on identifying a problem (easy enough) and then putting in place done sort of 'action'.
Seeing an s/lt
Sitting on a silly cushion
Attending a group

95% of the time this makes no difference whatsoever but what does if matter? In the brave new world of SEN provision, an intervention has been organised, ergo the problem had been solved.
As ond of my favourite quotes points out, there is more comeback from selling someone a bad burger than there is a bad education.
I guarantee I could sort you dd's issues out in an afternoon Lougle. Not because I am brilliant or talented or a caring carrot extraordinaire. Rather, because instructional design is a core component of using ABA. It's easy when you know how and every teacher should know how.

Blimey Lougle, I know you're not sure yourself but your post at 16:12:23 doesn't just suggest possible ASD, it screams it.

A dx of ASD can get her a statement (okay, not an easy road) and support, and that may have the provision written clear enough in it to help. Certainly it would justify a statutory assessment which will get you INFORMATION.

Excuse illiterate post. On phone with cracked screen in howling gale eying creaking trees nervously...

Do you do private work, Moondog?