A couple of things regarding SA application

[Skylar123]

I want to apply for SA for my Ds. I have spoken to Ipsea and they also think I should apply.
I will speak to them again soon but as My head is doing 100mph tonight I wanted to ask you knowledgable mumsnetters a few questions please -

If primary school is doing a good amount to help Ds at present , can I still apply?

If Statement is given does it cost the school more money and could they not want me to apply for this reason?

Should I tell the school I am applying for statement?

What do I need to show exactly to warrant SA being accepted?

Can I apply for SA based on amount of help that is already in place proving he needs constant support at school and where he would be if that stopped?

Thanks in advance to anyone that can reply I appreciate every ounce of help.

How much support is he getting at the moment? You have to show that he needs more support than school could reasonably provide at school action plus. In practice that usually means more than 11.5 hours of TA time as that amount can be funded by school from its devolved budget. School's don't really like statementing for various reasons, not least the need to do a load of paperwork and justify what they are doing right now. Also, a statement means they have to spend that devolved budget on the specified SEN support, without a statement they can spend it on anything they like.

You need to specifically show that school have done everything they possibly could within the constraints of budget/school action plus and still your child is not making adequate progress.

Yes, to the first three questions.

To increase your chances of SA being accepted you need to read through the SENCOP and find the key phrases and wording from it that applies to your child and give perhaps one or two examples/

Possibly, is the answer to the next question. It really depends on how permanently he needs that support and whether it is and will always be there for him, and whether the school can be expected to fund that level of support long-term.

If he has a high level of support, that will justify a SA in order to see more clearly what his difficulties are to ensure that the support is efficiently targeted and importantly, whether he has any needs yet unidentified, which is probable, given the amount of resources he currently requires iyswim.

Taking your questions in order:

1. Yes, if your DS's needs are not being met despite all the help they are giving, or if the help they are giving is unsustainable from their own resources, then you can still apply for SA. You can apply even if they are meeting his needs and can continue to, but you are less likely to succeed.

1. This is a tricky question. The Statement will only cost as much as the provision in it. The provision in a Statement must match assessed need. If the Statement says your DS needs x, y, z., then he definitely does, because they can only state it if they have evidence of it. If the assessment shows that your DS needs more support than he's currently getting, then it will cost more than the provision he's currently getting. The school has to meet the first £6000 of any SEN provision, statemented or otherwise, for each child.

So, if your DS's school is currently not providing the support he needs, then a statement specifying additional support will cost them more. If they are currently meeting his needs, then a statement would not cost them more. If they are already spending £6000 on his needs, then a Statement would not cost them more, regardless of what was in it.

1. If you have a good relationship with the school, then tell them you are applying and ask for their support. If for some reason you suspect that paperwork might disappear (very unlikely, but some MNers have reported that this has happened to them) then it might be worth getting a copy of his file before you say so, but this would require a Subject Access Request. There is no obligation to tell them, but they will be asked to provide information, so it's better to have their support.

1. To undertake a Statutory Assessment, the LA has to be satisfied that your DS 'probably' needs a Statement. To be satisfied that your DS 'probably' needs a Statement, the LA has to believe that it is likely that your DS has SEN that requires provision beyond the normal resources available to mainstream schools in the area, either in cost or in type.

1. Yes, you can apply on the basis that full 1:1 support is unsustainable given the cost and that his progress is only as it is because he has full 1:1 support.

X-posted with popgoestheweazel and Star.

The £6000 is the devolved budget I mentioned, roughly equivalent to 11.5 hrs TA support.

I would tell the school. They be asked to provide a report to lea so they will find out. If they oppose you point out its your right to apply and don't get involved with the details. It's better if they are on side ( my senco said I had no chance but supported me anyway). Importantly don't let them talk you out of it. Promises of gather more evidence etc. they school can do that while you apply

Thank you . How is making adequate progress measured? What concludes my Ds needs are not being met? Level wise he has improved, socially he still struggles and he finds transitions a problem. He always tells me he doesn't understand what the teacher is telling him. He has low self esteem. School refusal and anxiety frequently .he can't write properly and his letters are back to front like a lot of his numbers. He seems to have most difficulty with literacy and maths.

How do I know if he has a high level of support currently at school. Should I ask the school to confirm in writing al the support they have got in place? So school should be spending £6k on Ds's support without statement? Should I ask the sch if they feel they can provide enough provision for Ds within their budget.

Going from the last question backwards:

-"Should I ask the sch if they feel they can provide enough provision for DS within their budget." No. Your concern is your DS, not the school's budget. You need to be satisfied that his needs are being met regardless of whether the cost of that provision is £3.50 per year or £6000 per year.

-"So school should be spending £6k on Ds's support without statement?" No. The school only has to give standard provision unless they deem your DS to have SEN, at which point they must identify what support your DS needs in relation to his SEN. The SEN CoP is very clear that a graduated response is appropriate. That is, that they can identify SEN, give some support, then if the child is still making inadequate progress, increase that support or change the support, then assess progress, etc. The school is not required to spend any particular amount on any child. However if the school is making provision for a child with SEN, the expectation is that any cost of that support will be met by the school, from its devolved budget, unless the cost of that support exceeds £6000. At that point, the school can ask the LA for assistance with funding.

-"What concludes my Ds needs are not being met?" If the school assesses progress that your DS makes and it is still inadequate despite support and there is no further support the school can give from within its own resources, then they may conclude that they are unable to meet his needs without the support of the LA.

-"How is making adequate progress measured?" The SEN CoP is clear that progress is not simply about levels. There are no fixed measures.

The SEN CoP says "4.14 Adequate progress can be defined in a number of ways. It might, for instance, be progress that:

• closes the attainment gap between the child and the child’s peers

-prevents the attainment gap growing wider -is similar to that of peers starting from the same attainment baseline, but less than that of the majority of peers -matches or betters the child’s previous rate of progress -ensures access to the full curriculum -demonstrates an improvement in self-help, social or personal skills -demonstrates improvements in the pupil’s behaviour."

So, to demonstrate that progress is inadequate, you either have to show that your child is capable of more than they are achieving, or that progress is not being made.

At DS2's primary, in practice, only DC with a statement are guaranteed the full 6k. There is no choice as this is statutory.

The remainder of the non-ring fenced devolved budget is shared between DC on register who are non-statutory (atm SA and SA+). Those with high incidence low need tend to receive less - maybe up to 5 hours - up to the full 13.5 hours (6k) for non-statutory low incidence high level need.

You might only get the school to put in the first 6k necessary if you apply for SA.

Skylar, you have to be prepared to say that you are expecting your child's needs to be met efficiently and effectively. NOT that you want x amount of money or resources or whatever.

If your ds had a retired Autism Advisory Teacher with a PhD in Evidence Based practice, original degree in SALT and 12 grandchildren with ASD volunteering with the school to be your child's 1:1 for free, you'd hardly say 'no thanks, I want my ds to have £15k of support.

It is up to you to make sure that there is enough evidence of your child's needs and that they are properly defined. You will then get a proposal of how those needs will be met. This will be either in justification for refusal to assess, NIL after assessment or a statement, depending where you are in the process. You will then be able to say whether you think this will meet his needs and provide evidence as to why not, if not.

You can only say what he needs. Don't get into conversations about funding or other people's children, or what is or isn't realistic to expect.

Your child will never be entitled to anything by law unless it is written in the statement.

In a school how is able to do things as they are supposed to be done, your child will get as much of the £6k as they need to make adequate progress. However this will always depend on the school's opinion of need, progress, and your ds' capabilities. This means them having a good understanding of your ds and strategies that will help and their willingness to prioritise up to £6k for one child instead of to pay for glossy brochures to attract new parents

It's definitely needs based. Not financial. We can get too caught up in the finances.

E.g.:

DD2 has ELSA every other week now, plus Dragonflies on two afternoons per week, although this is only going to be for around 6-10 weeks. So she's getting around 2½-3½ hours per week LSA support from that, plus she is in a group that has LSA support for Maths, etc. How much that would be costed at is irrelevant, unless there was a need to compare costs of provision in a Tribunal.

ime unless the school are already providing 13.5 hours per support any application for SA will be considered premature.

But unless the child has a statement the school will not provide 13.5 hours support because this is not statutory and nobody can tell them how to spend their budget.

Non-statutory DC have no legal protection. To get this they need a statement.

Apply for SA. If you already know that there isn't 13.5 hours provision you will definitely get a refusal - regardless of progress at this stage. Appeal refusal. LA rep will call a meeting with school. Agree 13.5 provision - they will want evidence of progress to defend appeal.

If there is adequate progress by the hearing date with increased provision you can withdraw your appeal. If not, the LA will most likely cave. It's only for assessment at this stage and not often worth the cost of rigorous defence as they have already benefitted by delay.

I don't think that follows, KeepOnKeepingOn1. It isn't as straightforward as 13.5hrs support. Whether a Statement is necessary depends on more factors, such as how a DC has responded to interventions, etc.

I think you're both right. lougle If you don't mind me saying, you often have a 'how it should be' kind of look at situations and it is essential that that is kept in mind. It is also essential that schools and LAs are given the chance to work in this way as some truly do and some who don't truly try to.

BUT, there is no guarantee that they will and what Keep has outlined is a very likely journey, becoming more so as the whole SEN thing is being shaken up.

BTW It is vital that posters are given the correct 'how it supposed to work' information regularly as I sometimes wonder if we sometimes write our own rules based on our experiences, which rely on an awful lot of suspicion. Or perhaps I am just talking about myself........

But they do need the suspicion stuff too, to make sure they are safeguarded.

According to several people in both home and school LAs it is exactly that straightforward.

Less than 13.5 hours = school could do more = refuse SA

Progress only becomes an issue for the LA directly if this condition is met.

I know how it should be. But insistence on unspecified efficient and effective provision means that you get side-tracked by the fact that you and the school are working with different views on what constitutes adequate progress. It gives them too much wiggle room.

But I do insist on referring to provision or support of 13.5 hours rather than 6k as funding is not my concern when talking to school or LA.

There are lots of versions of the truth.

The way it is supposed to work.
The way schools think it is supposed to work.
The way LA's budget holders try and engineer it to work.
The way LA's front-line staff think it is supposed to work.
The way parents think it is supposed to work.
The way parents experience it working.

I'm in such a muddle about this too, my DS has been fairly well supported at school (now Year 5) but their idea of adequate progress and mine don't match (both academically and socially) and it is reaching a point where he needs more help. DS has nowhere near 13.5 hours a week at the moment though. However I don't know what to suggest they do and they have been unable to get an Ed. Psych assessment for him. So, I decided to go private on that, but there are no guarantees that the school would implement any of it. People keep telling me over and over again to apply for SA, I have drafted a letter, but I really don't think I will get anywhere. I just don't know what to do and all the while time is passing. It seems so wrong that you can't even have a proper assessment made without a massive fight.

We have to go with the legal situation because individual parents' experiences simply show failings in the application of the system. Yes, those failings can be systemic. No, those failings should not be denied. But parents can't be given advise here based on 'what I've seen happen' because it will intrinsically skew the likelihood of parents applying for SA in the first place.

Lets say that one poster asks for advice. Someone (Keep in this instance) says 'you won't get agreement for SA unless your child has 13.5 hours 1:1 support in place'.

That poster may, or may not, decide to go for it anyway.

However, there could be 30, 40 or even 50 lurkers, or people who come along at a later date, searching the threads. All of whom think that the situation is black and white: '13.5 hours 1:1 before SA.'

There is no legislation, guidance or otherwise which says ' a child must be getting 13.5 hours 1:1 support before SA will go ahead.'

I also think we need to remember that 1:1 support is not the only provision that schools can provide, and that all provision costs money. My DD2 is having 'Dragonflies' twice per week. It isn't 1:1 - she's in a group of 5, with 2 LSAs. It costs money and therefore, it would go towards the £6000.

Also, the floor of £6,000 has nothing to do with Statementing per se. It isn't the case that funding > £6000 = SA. Nor is it the case that funding < £6000 does not = SA. There will be children who have statements, whose provision is less than £6000. Those children's statements will be funded by their schools.

Statements are for children whose schools cannot reasonably meet their needs out of their own resources. That may be a quantitative measure (this provision is too expensive) or qualitative (the school doesn't have access to this therapy/provision/resource without LA support).

So I disagree that I see things 'as they should be'. I see things as they are. In saying that, I don't deny that some parents are subjected to practices that are not legal, or are decidedly skewed in their interpretation of the law, or are implemented badly.

lougle - unfortunately what I have outline is the legal (if immoral) interpretation used by some LAs and schools. How else would you interpret this?

secure.essexcc.gov.uk/vip8/si/esi/content/binaries/documents/Primary_Funding_Letter_13-14_sept_13.pdf

I am not saying do not apply for SA because you don't have 13.5 hours support but do apply for SA because this is likely to be the most effective way of actually getting 13.5 hours support.

I am saying that you are most likely to fall at the first hurdle and that there is now a new one to get over (ie persuading the school to give 13.5 extra hours support when no one is making them). Expect the hurdle and plan how to get over it. The alternative may be to believe that refusal is interpreted as 'proof' that the child does not need statemented support and the parent gives up the fight.

In DS2s school they don't 'do' in class 1:1 for non-statutory children. There is a limit to how much time the child can spend accessing provision that is an alternative to in-class teaching (inclusion) and so logically the amount of provision given to non-statutory DC must be limited - ie they can't spend 13.5 hours out of the class.

Your point about small groups being funded by the SEN budget is not necessarily true - at a meeting last week the senco/head admitted that the small group provision (assumed SEN budget) was actually meaningless as the whole class formed small groups (ie normal provision funded by AWPU and part of the staffing budget).

There are those given statements that don't come with any extra funding and this can force the school to put in the support and give the child protected right. But, for the LA, there is the risk that the parents will take the statement and run all the way to tribunal and that the panel will see things rather differently once a million and one assessments have been carried out.

I'm not intending to be confrontational, but actually, I think that document rather neatly backs up my point.

Pupils with Additional needs (who may have Statements) are expected to have 5 to 12.5 hours of LSA support or equivalent.

Pupils in the High Needs Block must have a Statement and the support must be specified.

Nurture groups (which is what DD2 attends) is outside of the normal provision for children in her school. They have space for 5 children. It isn't 'normal differentiation' and doesn't take place in the classroom.

All I'm saying is that the money and nuts and bolts is not what parents should be focusing on. They shouldn't be adding up the hours of support their child gets to decide whether they need a SA.

DS1 went from 3.5 hours support to OOC indi ss following tribunal (and failing transition). The 3.5 hours support was an indication of ignorance not a true measure of need.

Some DC will never be recognised by m/s teachers and so will never qualify for higher support.

Perhaps if DS1 had received that extra 10 hours per week he would not have been out of school for a year and would still 'live' at home, perhaps not.

A system that normalises failure to recognise need is wrong. A system that relies upon teachers recognising complex needs - and these teachers are pressured from the LA and the NHS can only advise - is beyond wrong and means that schools, with a vested financial incentive, are solely responsible for recognising need requiring extra funding. What happens if they don't recognise it - even if this means ignoring external advice? - err - nothing. Things only start to happen when you apply for SA.

If pressed, I would say that the pressure of applications for SA before the law change is not sufficient and that all parents that have deep concerns, apply for SA now as things will not improve in the future. And then appeal refusal. Overwhelm the SEN/LA/tribunal system whilst it still exists.

keepon - that is the exact position I find myself in - school have no put head in the sand as ive applied and now just ignore me. they haven't even acknowledged that my daughter is now having a statutory assessment done - the teacher has gone into hiding (I kid you not!) and this is a child who is 4 years behind and school still say wont get a statement blah blah blah - decision due in the next week, no idea what the school have written or said but as soon as I get a no, the appeal will go in