My 7 year old ds got chucked out of a pub! Discrimination?

[Eulalia]

Was out yesterday with my sister and my 3 kids, ds1 who's just turned 7, dd 4 and ds2 who is nearly 1. We went to a 'family' pub with beer garden and small playpark. Have been there a few times before with no problems.

ds1 has autism and a few related behavioural problems but we sat right next to the park and either I or my sister was watching ds. For some reason this time he started throwing the bark pieces around. Its rather dirty as the park is underneath some trees. Tried to stop him but he was just determined. There was another group of kids with 3 mums. I spoke to them and they were totally fine with it and have experience of autism. Whew! Their kids got filthy but didn't mind... after all that's what kids do isn't it?

Then another girl comes along, quite old about 11 all nicely dressed, gets a very small bit of dirt on her, I mean not much... ds was just throwing it into the air, not at her. She shrieks and her dad shouts over "just hit him back!". Then the manager comes over although I had no idea it was as he didn't have a name badge on, I thought he was a barman. He says "stop throwing the stuff, could get in people's eyes etc" Ok I agree with this, talk to the parents. "she's just had a shower!" blah blah. Mum seems understanding, dad is just a boor.

Clean ds up and yes he does have dirt in his eyes (don't think he'll be doing that again!) but he's OK and goes back and plays quite nicely for about half an hour. The angry family leave.

Then ds picks up a small slipper type shoe and throws it. Doesn't hit anyone and just lands outside the park area, I suppose it could have hit a glass if he had thrown it harder. Manager storms over and says "you'll have to leave". I ask him who he is and he tells me. He's bloody rude IMO. I get a card from the barmaid with the owners name and am about to complain. The three mums take my name and say they will also complain as witnesses.

The thing is no-one actually made a complaint against us, the 3 mums were happy with the situation and no-one was hurt, nothing damaged etc. ds1 was a bit boisterious but so are plenty of kids and there's bits of branches and stuff lying around that any kid could throw and I am sure have done in the past. And its not as if things don't get knocked over in a beer garden anyway by adults, drunk adults at that....

Sorry for the long speil, just feel better writing it out. Don't know whether to phone the owners, email or write a formal letter of compliant. Probably nothing much can be done as a manager has the right to ask anyone to leave ... but it was the manner in which it was done and I don't know if I have any rights and that my child has been discriminated against.

What would you do?

Hang on throwing pieces of nark up into the air- not at anyone is "dangerous"??? So dangerous that you don't want your children anywhere near.

Blimey.

Hang on throwing pieces of bark up into the air- not at anyone is "dangerous"??? So dangerous that you don't want your children anywhere near.

Blimey.

I am busy making a list of mumsnetters I had better never meet with ds1 in tow (or ds3 come to that he's the manic one, ds1 just has no concept of safety at all- but mainly directed towards damaging himself.).

Threads like this always suprise me. Honestly you lot would all have nervous breakdowns looking after ds1. Already had to drag him in from hanging out of a window half an hour into the school holidays (he was throwing toothbrushes out of it, and I will pick them up and I will give them to the boys to use later- they do get binned if I find them down the loo though).

The toruble is this low level "dangerous" behaviour can occur anywhere. So if you say you need to keep autistic children away then really you are saying that they have to stay in all the time. Yes there are things you can do, but throwing bark up in the air (not at anyone) is the kind of thing you have to let go or you can't go out.

Everytime we go to the playground I can guarantee that if children are taking too long on the slide then ds1 will climb over them to get to the front. I try to avoid this by only going when I can give him 1:1 (so I would never take him and his brothers alone), and only going if I think the park will be quiet. If it happens, it happens, I would apologise, but the alternative is that he never goes to a park ever, that's the only way I can guarantee it won't happen. Seems a bit unfair.

I would write a letter just to outline how upset you were at the way you were spoken to. It doesn't matter who was right/wrong but at the end of the day, he didn't identify himself as the manager and he could have handled it in a more sensitive way.

I wouldn't get into a discussion about angry family or the way ds was behaving because in the end, you are upset with his manner more than anything else.

I have met several autistic children (because one of the behavioural clinics was run at the same time as the allergy one) and I have seen how draining it is for the parents to try and 'manage' their child - and to feel they had to explain to everyone else what was going on so I really feel for you Eulalia.

I guess if they didn't like the way your child was behaving, they could have moved further away.

I would definitely write a letter- it's not just the fact that this particular incident was badly handled (and wrongly handled IMO) but that nothing will change about attitudes like this if everyone just slinks away and tries to find somewhere more understanding. Life it hard enough without having to deal with gittish attitudes like that.

Agree with Jimjams2. Def write to owner politely explaining that you were closely supervising ds and other parents happy. Don't think throwing bark in air is really dangerous. There are so many rude people around why let them ruin your family time?

aww FIS- that's it. It is so much easier if people take on some of the supervision of their children. I do everything I can to get ds1 to behave appropriately but he has zero (and I mean zero) understanding of social expectations. To get him to sit down to eat for example is impossible without standing next to him and saying every single time he stands up "sit down ds1" - and it still means waiting for him to do a quick circuit before returning. In an average mealtime he'll get down about 15 times (if I;m on top of him)

Other than being annoying that doesn't affect anyone else, but if he was doing something vaguely dangerous it is such a help if other parents take on the responsibility of keeping their child safe from him, usually by engaging the child in something else.

I remember there was a little park I used to be able to take him and ds2 to. It was almost always empty, and away from any roads. He set up a little circuit there- which was arrive, go on the tyre swing, go on the see-saw, the slide. Then he could relax and do what he wanted.

One day he arrived just as a little girl with her mother was getting onto the tyre swing. He ran up to it (me in hot pursuit, dragging ds2 along with me), and he kept trying to get on the swing. I dragged him away, he was screaming and hitting himself, I kept telling him to go on something else. I tried to get him to leave the park, but I couldn't physically manage him - every time I let go he ran back to the tyre swing. The mother of the girl gave him evils all the time, and even told the girl to stay on the swing when she tried to get off. She kept her dd on the swing for 15 minutes. By which time we were in absolute meltdown. Ds2 was 2, and god knows where, I had to just restrain ds1 and let him hit himself so the tension was going somewhere. After 1/4 hour the girl got off- ds1 went over the swing, sat on it for about - oo- 5 seconds, ran to the see-saw, went down the slide, and then happily played in the park for another half an hour.

Now that mother was less then helpful.

Jimjams - I totally agree with your toothbrush policy. My BIL was amused that I reuse DD's nappy the next night if she has a dry night - apparently he wouldn't be allowed to do that...

Eulalia - I think you have been given good advice from people who know what you are dealing with (jimjams, eidsvold etc) so I hope you can decide on an appropriate course of action and most importantly not let it get to you too much.

the thing is the blimmin toothbrushes are going to be on the balcony all day because I don't want ds1 to see that the balcony doors open

Mind you I want a round of applause. I have two windowns open in the house for the first time in about 4 months and I have the fan off. Both of these have been non-negotiable until today. (all credit to donna williams- followed her advice and it worked).

I would write, but I would only write to complain about the manager's attitude towards you and your family. Imo bringing the stuck-up family into the equasion won't achieve anything. But people need to be made aware of disability and if people avoid places because of the attitudes of the staff then the attitudes of the staff will never change. I would write, and then I would go back there next week, and the week after, and the week after that, until they learn.

Agree also with poster who said that if the parents didn't like it they could move their children away from the equasion as well. sounds to me like the father of the little girl had no awareness of autism what so ever. very very sad in a society where autism is so widely discussed esp in the media etc.

jimjams, I hope the list you're compiling doesn't include me... I specifically said that I wasn't saying this was a dangerous situation.
I was answering the specific question about insurance because, as it happens, I have a fair bit of experience of dealing with insurance and risk with SN children (and indeed playing with autistic/SN children) and indeed with H&S issues with playgrounds for SN/mixed use.
As it happens, getting bark or other foreign objects in the eye can be a risk and one which should be minimised.I hope this is a case of "shooting the messenger" because I do feel a little like presumptions being made about me when I was actually just trying to give advice and explain why (possibly) the manager reacted the way he did and how you might deal with that in correspondence.

Message withdrawn

'The toruble is this low level "dangerous" behaviour can occur anywhere. '

Too right! I'm personally far more concerned about NT kids bullying and being abusive and violent towards my kids than their possible contact w/autistic children.

i rarely take DS to the park before 5pm, we never go swimming, i dont like those jungle gym type places as i cant see him so we dont go there.

i have to keep him sperate for so much of the time becuase of people like that pub manager.

i woud=ld get angry but whats the point...sometimes the level of ignorance is just too much for any reasonable sane person to deal with...and certainly not a single mum to 2 kids one of which having ASD.

i'd write the letter and forget about it. you have have bigger battles to fight hun.

jimjams I didn't say that children with autism should be kept in at all.I didn't say idon't want my children to play with an autistic child either.Belive me I spend a lot of time with my friend and take him out on my own and I don't know how she copes.
I have two children with sn and get upset all the time but i promise it was not my intention.I was trying to say it wasn't because he has autism it was becauuse of what he was doing.I am sure if my two were throwing bark about he would have asked me to leave too.

Aww expat you are so lovely and you speak a hell of a lot of truth too ! xx

Honestly, Blossom, I've seen far more ghetto NT kids than autistic ones throwing bark in a pub garden.

I mean, don't people have other stuff to worry about?

FWIW, I've grazed my corneas twice. It hurt like a bastard, I have to say. But one time it happened when some sand blew into my eyes at a beach. How inane is that?!

The world is a dangerous place.

Expat LOL at sand incident!! Point is the manager should have had a POLITE discussion with Eulalia about the matter. I think the original title "discrimination" is very relevant here. The owner has a LEGAL duty and the Disability Discrim Act to ensure that the facilities are avaiable to disabled people so far as is reasonably possible. He certainly breached this duty IMHO. Also just wanted to say that you should not let this incident put you off going out, it makes me sick to think that ignorant people can be so horrible to you and your family when you have enough problems dealing with things anyway.

the trouble with things like bark throwing is that it is a repetitive behaviour, and therefore incredibly difficult to stop (hmm like throwing things out of windows- I was going to reply earlier but stuff started being chucked out of the window again).

It would be a lot easier if the general public had some understanding of autism - even if it was at the level of "that behaviour is difficult to stop because they are autistic", rather like I vaguely understand that someone in a wheelchair will struggle with steps, although I know very little else about physical disabilities. If steps stop people with physical diusabilities from moving about easily, being unable to let some low level undesirable behaviour go isolates families of children with autism (and its not just the child it affects siblings as well). Now in my world, I would absolutely NOT let ds1 throw bark at anyone, I would not let him throw it repatedly in close vicinty to someone else, but if some bark throwing meant that the other 2 boys could have a pub lunch then yes I would let it go.

IN reality what happens is that society's inability to tolerate any sort of infringement of noraml social expectations means that we don;t go out, or I'll tend to interfere to stop ds1 doing something that really isn't affecting anyone else at all (it's my fear of ebing challenged that is disabling if you like), and so we get an escalation. I am trying to develop stronger hide as I think ultimately it will be better for him and his siblings, and he'll learn more.

SO I need a concensus- is a 7 year od sitting in an 18 month olds cot (with the 18 month old) dangerous? Probably. I'd better go.

Noo they're bonding JJ.

its only dangerous if DS1 attempts to post Ds3 through the bars lol

I think there should be more targetted education about autism and other conditions at school so people become more aware of different types of behaviour. Sorry if I indicated in my post that Eulalia should have stopped her ds throwing bark. I just thought the bar manager should have had a proper discussion about the situation. If he was not doing something seriously likely to cause harm then he had a legal duty to let Eulalia's family stay and enjoy the pub facilities. Its this sort of situation the Act is there to prevent not just to put up ramps etc (not that these are not needed as well).

Would it be worth having leaflets printed, basically saying what autism is and some explanation about things like repetitive behaviours/meltdowns? The trouble is, autistic kids look normal, so unless told otherwise, most observers will assume they're NT kids behaving badly. It would save you having to explain every time and would go a long way to educating Joe Public (and would hopefully mean you didn't have to leave places like pub gardens etc ).

Sorry if this is inappropriate

Jimjams2 Where do you live I will go out with you anytime. Do you know my BF even dosen't like her son going to parties because if he is with others it sticks out a mile that he is different.She has had a difficult time coming to terms with it.I even get angry at the stares he gets.He is a big boy and he has very bad tantrums and it reduces her to tears at the way people stare at him.
Thing is sadly people will never understand unless they are living with it I suppose.I only have a tiny bit of understanding and i am sorry if I upset you or anyone.I seem to always say the wrong things without meaning too

bk - what sn do your children have?