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how much progress should a child make per year re NC levels?

40 replies

bjkmummy · 08/12/2013 13:12

my sunday afternoon job is to write a request for a statement for my daughter who has dyslexia.

have gone around the house and been trying to find all of her school reports - we moved a few times as DH was in the armed forces.

quite frustrating that quite a few of her school reports don't have her NC levels on so tracking her progress not been easy.

anyway from the information I do have is end of year 1 she was 1c for everything, end year 3 she was 2b for everything so that's 4 sublevels in 2 years.

from end of year 3 to now - she's in year 5 so 18 months she has made no progress at all and is still 2b on everything.

so what is the general rule of progress - I think I read some where its 1.5 sublevels per year in ks2 - is that right? no that I trust these NC levels - her twin brother was put at level 3 at year 2 SATS - had his anuual review this week and 3 years later hes on levels 2!

incidentially at age 10 year 2 months the dyslexia testing put her at between 6 yr 8 months - to 7 years on the reading spelling maths tests etc so I know she is significantly behind - so much of all those years of shes 'fine'

haven't been brave enough to speak to school yet to tell them im doing it! may have to send dh in me thinks! but seriously what can they do? she is clearly struggling and school now just seem to be doing their best to avoid me :-(

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bochead · 08/12/2013 13:54

2 sub levels per year is the expected rate for NT kids.

Sadly this figure is so easily manipulated by schools it's meaningless. Some teachers will be honest and won't be leant on, others cave to political pressure. It's got so silly that secondary teaching unions are demanding the right to invigilate year 6 SATS as they are tired of having to administer their own retests on admission to year 7.

mathswhizz does a free online assessment if that helps any. I've used it annually for years now to get a true picture of where my lad's at as the school report was an insult to harmless trees.

bjkmummy · 08/12/2013 14:09

totally agree bochead - my elder son who has ASD was put at NC2 at year 6 - think it was done politically so he could go to the local ASD unit but I fought for a special school - for the unit had to be at level 2. year 8 annual review and they put him on P scales!

and as I just said with her twin he has dropped substantially as well.

the EP report I had done puts her on the 2nd centile for lots of things plus she has a very poor working memory and I also have a report from her class teacher which states the interventions they have done have not worked and she has basically forgotten everything - hoping it will be enough to just get an assessment but know im in for a long lonely ride as I fight for her especially as my goal will be for a more specialist placement. finding it so hard to write the request as after having two asd boys I always felt she was okay so I cant quite get my head around the fact she isn't doing well at school.

ive spoken to a few people now about her and with her levels everyone says I should apply - how successful I will be well time will tell but im already making enquiries re further reports just in case. now just need DH to fix the printer!

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sazale · 08/12/2013 16:31

I've been using the national curriculum points scale to work out how far behind my son is. It says 4 points per year progress in KS1 and 3 points per year progress in KS2.
secure.schoolpupiltrackeronline.co.uk/documents/ncp_chart2.pdf

bjkmummy · 08/12/2013 18:47

According to that scale which was very interesting reading is she 5 points behind than where she should be which out her well below average and as I've said she's made no progress at all now for a substantial period

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Handywoman · 08/12/2013 19:28

bjk those levels you quote are very familiar. My dd1 also has dyslexia. She made zero progress from beginning Y3 to April Y4 which school confusingly refused to accept even though I had the evidence in front of me in the form of school reports Hmm at which point I was blamed and accused of .'transferring my own anxiety ' on to my dd1 Hmm

At this point I hit the roof and complained directly to school governors about not being listened to.

Cue re-assessment of dd1 NC levels revealing sudden progress across the board at levels flatly disputed by dd1's specialist tutor.

It is a joke. Good luck with SA OP. I wish I had the balls but would be laughed all the way from County Hall.

sazale · 08/12/2013 20:07

I'm just filing for appeal for refusal to assess for DS 6 (in year 2 and 7 in Feb). The school have said on their response to the LA that he hasn't made adequate progress in line with the COP. They say they need more time to give interventions chance. Interventions that on my records they said they were doing over a year a go but not in the info submitted to the LA!

He's on p7 for speaking and listening and P8 for writing, reading and numeracy. That puts him at 7/8 points behind which is as far as the behind measures on that chart at 2+ years and he's only been in full time school 2 and a bit years! He is a highly intelligent little boy but finds everything about school difficult.

Why do schools try to cover up? They refused to admit any difficulties a year ago and tried to say it was my anxiety! I believed all the lies with DD I ain't falling for it a 2nd time!

bochead · 08/12/2013 22:19

They cover up to protect their jobs! No more, no less. It's one of the few areas where I do actually have some sympathy for education professionals.

The crazy importance attached to SATS tests has filtered through to all aspects of primary education and completely corrupted it nowadays.

A poor Ofsted means senior staff can be looking for new jobs and considered virtually unemployable.

It's one of the key reasons why the term "outstanding" has become so meaningless - all that means now is superb attendance, couple with the ability to fiddle the attainment stats according to the most up to date Gove dictats.

With SN kids LA's encourage a bit of "creative accountancy" as regards attainment levels as it keeps costs down.

The whole thing is a fiddle & the only way to get a true picture is to encounter the rare honest professional (one who is heading for retirement?) OR to assess independently.

bjkmummy · 08/12/2013 22:32

that's what is becoming so depressing - that the only way you can get the right help and support is by getting private reports and the cost that entails -I now have 3 children with SEN so the costs keep mounting up - just get over one tribunal then have to start it all again with the next child - I am absolutely drained of it all and in some respects this should be the easier battle as she is absolutely behing in all areas and we have the dyslexia action report but now the goal posts move again as its now just 'dyslexia' and now we start the battle that kids with dyslexia don't get statements. honestly with 3 kids now with SEN I have heard it all from every angle with every excuse and now don't even try to conceal the rolling of my eyes when they trot out the usual crap that we all have to listen to as to why our kids wont get a statement.

and now even my printer has come out in sympathy of the LA and decided not to work = I am seriously considering handwriting the letter - then can hand deliver it tomorrow and then stand back and watch the school erupt at me for doing it and the LA throwing their toys out of the pram at me - yep - most hated mum of the year award looks like its heading my way

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sazale · 08/12/2013 23:19

We can be 2 most hated mums together lol!

I've just paid for independent OT, EP and SALT assessments for DD age 14 as we're going to tribunal in Feb to hopefully secure an independent ASC specialist school. Also heading for a stage 3 school complaint for her as well!

DS has just been discharged from CDC as he's too old for their service and they're unable to identify a "unifying diagnosis"! So DS has no official diagnoses but a long list of difficulties that are all compounding each other to add to his anxiety!

I've now reached the stage now where I no longer care what they think and it's almost become fun to see how much I can make them squirm!

bjkmummy · 08/12/2013 23:41

I was at tribunal in feb last year for an independent asc school - I won that battle - hence why im especially hated! have to say that battle was worth it as hes doing so well now - this battle is for his twin sister.

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sazale · 08/12/2013 23:46

It's great to hear the difference it's made for your son!

Our final evidence is 20th Jan and the LA haven't done any assessments or asked to do any.

kafkesque · 09/12/2013 00:16

Snap: DS1 dyslexic and DS2 ASD
I have learnt a lot from applying for SA for DS2 so I am just going for it for DS1 and will probably have to go further with appeals ect because his SEN is not as obvious as DS2. I am not even going to try understanding the system will just challenge all the way until it starts costing too much money.
I cannot confess to understanding the NC levels but having seen the chart it is not so easy to understand. Parent Partnership has given me a copy.
You are lucky you get school reports with NC levels on. I had to ask for them and then was told I would not understand them.
I think you have to give a copy of your SA application to the school. I did, they have not said a word!
The SEN officer asked me why I needed a statement. I said I didn’t need the statement it was the Assessment I was after. SEN officer was then shocked that nothing had happened in two years and would speak to school. I am still waiting but have received a letter saying they acknowledge my application.
I have put all three reports together as it shows his handwriting every year. It has not changed one bit.
Snap: I believed all the lies with DS2 I ain't falling for it a 2nd time!
Snap: “I now have 2 children with SEN so the costs keep mounting up - just get over one tribunal then have to start it all again with the next child.... have heard it all from every angle with every excuse and now don't even try to conceal the rolling of my eyes when they trot out the usual crap that we all have to listen to as to why our kids won’t get a statement.”
Snap: “I've now reached the stage now where I no longer care what they think and it's almost become fun to see how much I can make them” ...work harder I have been told there are other children!
I too am hated and was very embarrassed to show my face at the Christmas Fair this weekend.

KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 07:55

bjk - dyslexia is just different because even more things from the LA will focus on 'progress' as the primary need is 'cognition and learning'.

NC levels are crap to try and show progress because they are completely subjective and as soon as you apply for SA you will find that the school reports 'progress' of one sub-level. 6 months progress in one year is enough to justify refusal.

Read the Rose Review (if you haven't already) dera.ioe.ac.uk/14790/1/00659-2009DOM-EN.pdf.

You need to use standardised reading and spelling tests to measure progress. They are objective, take about 5 minutes and can be done 2 or 3 times a year.

I applied for an assessment with DS1 when I only had dyslexia confirmed and so focused on this. He had made no progress at all from end of year 2 to end of year 5 using NC levels. After the initial refusal the LA bod who came to visit and put pressure on the school to do what they ought, said that we needed to look at progress during a Wave 3 intervention like Accelerite/Acceleread (? sp).

Essentially, what you need to do is calculate ratio gain during a Wave 3 intervention. See paste below for an extract to my LA:

'Many UK studies report results not in standard scores but in reading and spelling ages, from which ratio gains can be calculated in order to evaluate the effectiveness of the intervention. A ratio gain of 1.0 means that the child’s skills are developing at a normal pace, but they will not be catching up with their peers. Brooks (2007) suggests that ratio gains of less than 1.4 are of ‘doubtful educational significance’, between 1.4 and 2.0 of ‘modest impact’, between 2.0 and 3.0 of ‘useful impact’, between 3.0 and 4.0 of ‘substantial impact’ and above 4.0 of ‘remarkable impact’ (Brooks. 2007, p. 289).

However, Brooks (2007) points out that ordinary teaching (i.e. no intervention) does not enable children with literacy difficulties to catch up, and hence it is fair to presume that, in the absence of control or comparison groups, and where effect sizes cannot be calculated, findings of ratio gains in excess of 2.0 may be taken as good evidence in support of the method employed. Indeed, several studies have shown that, without help, dyslexic pupils progress at around only 5 months per calendar year in reading (ratio gain 0.42) and 3 months in spelling (ratio gain 0.25) (Thomson, 1990, 2001; see also Rack and Walker, 1994). Dr Singleton suggests that in cases of dyslexia the achievement of ratio gains of 1.00 or greater represents substantial progress for these individuals, even though they may still have literacy skills below levels required to access the curriculum effectively.'

Unfortunately the assessment results with regard to reading are confused and contradictory. According to the IEP data, sentence reading assessment was carried out in January 2010 (Salford) which recorded RA 9 years 11 months, CA 9 years, 1 month (+10 months) and in November 2011 (Suffolk) which recorded RA 11 years 0 months, CA 10 years, 11 months (+ 1 month). However at a meeting with the Head/SENCo, we were given a handwritten post-it note with the results of testing in April 2012 (Suffolk), RA 10.02, CA 11.04 (-1 year, 3 months) together with a previously unmentioned and unreported assessment result of testing apparently carried out in October 2011 (Suffolk) RA 9.11, CA 10.10 (-1 year, 0 months).

At least one result is wrong. As the data provided by the school is contradictory it is, therefore, clear that these figures cannot be used to provide any valid measure of progress.

We would suggest that future assessments are 'single word recognition' measures (eg WORD) to enable comparison with data collected by EP, and in order that decoding abilities are properly tested in response to the particular intervention in isolation. Sentence reading tests are a relatively poor, and therefore inappropriate, measure of decoding ability which may be assisted by context and meaning in sentence reading tests. As the objective is to measure the impact of a specific intervention, it is important to use a strong measure in such evaluation.

With regard to spelling, IEP data records assessment in November 2011 (nfer Nelson) of SA 7.06 at CA 10.11 (- 3 years, 6 months) whilst the post-it note recounts September 2011 (nfer Nelson) result of SA 7.05 with CA 10.09 (- 3 years, 5 months) and April 2012 (nfer Nelson) of SA 7.08 with CA 11.4 (- 3 years, 10 months). Thus in a six month period DS1 has made progress of around two months. This represents a ratio gain of 0.3, during the course of a Wave 3 intervention, and is clearly inadequate. This demonstrates that the intervention has been unsuccessful in improving spelling performance. This is commensurate with rate of progress prior to the specific intervention (ratio gain 0.3, July 2010-July 2011) whose effectiveness is being evaluated, and, is similar to that expected by a child receiving no help, rather than the maximum permitted at Action+ level."

Excuse the arseiness - they were pissing me off by this stage.
Smile

KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 07:56

dera.ioe.ac.uk/14790/1/00659-2009DOM-EN.pdf

KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 07:59

The quote in the post above is from the Rose Review.

Outcome was assessment (no leg to stand on re progress) and a (crap) statement.

bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:05

Well ivewritten the letter and enclosed they dyslexia report plus the school report where they state she's made no progress, my concern is that the LA will put pressure on the school to do more but as she's now in year 5 its too little too late to get her ready for secondary in 18 months time, the catchment secondary school already made it clear they don't want her and have no dyslexia teachers and will refuse her if I do get a statement with specialist teaching. So what as parents do we do? We have no choice but to fight for them. Now just need to hand deliver it but not told the school I'm applying yet - so far they have just discouraged me and keep saying she won't be statemented as not 6 years behind - sigh.......

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KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 11:14

bjk - what provision does she have atm? The school was not considered to have 'done enough' until it had provided Wave 3 intervention, was teaching touch-typing, provided a digital voice recorder etc in addition to what it was already doing (sod all).

KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 11:22

My LA also has split placement dyslexia specialist provision or peripatetic specialist teachers that are accessible to DC on SA+. Really schools are expected to fund up to 13.5 hours support and apply for top-up funding and/or access to more specialist resources before they support application for assessment. The LA specialists usually get involved following initial refusal to prevent parents from applying for a statement in order to access support/resources.

I knew nothing of this provision and had been told by an LA EP that DS1 would not get access to more or different support/resources with a statement. She must have been wearing asbestos pants.

bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:23

School have done nothing expect intensive reading/writing interventions which have failed. School refuse to call EP in as she's not more than 6 years behind. They have allowed a dyslexia teacher we are paying for to go in for an hour a week and that's basically it. The Iep is rubbish and merely states things like to learn the first 100 high frequency words with an ending date of April 2014. She's not learnt them after 5 years so can't see her doing it in the next few months. She is about 3-4 years behin according to EP report , has appalling short term memory hence she's not learning, struggling phonologically - she's on the 2nd centile for reading writing spelling etc. school dont know what to do with her but I expect once they get wind that I've applied that all sorts may start to happen. There's only 22 kids in her school so 10 in her class so even with small class sizes she's not learning as she's not being taught in the right way I guess hence why she's going to need lots of specialist teaching

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bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:25

I've phoned the GP to ask for a referral to a paediatrician as both her brothers has dyspraxia and autism - dont think she has autism but do thing she may have dyspraxia

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bochead · 09/12/2013 11:34

I was in a similar pickle with DS as he's also year 5. Homeschool was my answer as I decided to focus my resources on direct work with the child rather than satisfying caring carrot criteria as he was running out of time before secondary.

Suggestions

  1. Tinsley House - this seems to have sorted a number of children from this board. It's not for me, but I can't deny others have had have good results.
  1. Behavioral optremtrist. We wouldn't be making the progress we are now without 18 months of BO and OT work previously. (52% of all dyslexics can be helped in just 3-6 months by a BO my lad was a particularly severe example so we were unlucky).
  1. Earobics (if her problems are auditory) and/or mimio headsprout (if a lot comes down to poor teaching) have also got results for many on this board. We decided to run with mimio headsprout and the old fashioned Peter & Jane Ladybird books, (cos I'm dyslexic & they worked for me back in the day lol!).
I'll try earobics next if headsprout fails.
  1. Diet - Gaps diet and or the Brain food plan.
  1. Can you homeschool, while you apply for the statement? If you get a better rate of progress than school did then you have some evidence of what works for secondary? This option needs LOTS of research, especially with those ECHP things due to replace statements soon so will partially depend on whether you are in a "good" LA.
  1. There are specialist dyslexia units dotted round the country. If you have one locally then ring em and find out how o earth they get their funding as usually the HT's of these establishments know every trick in the book re getting statements for pure dyslexia.

I'm sorry none of my solutions are free. Sad.

KOKOagainandagain · 09/12/2013 11:40

I'd view things in stages. DD ticks the box on 'severity' but/so the key issue for the LA will be 'persistence' and 'resistance' to effective intervention over time.

The first application is very likely to be refused but DD will be on the radar and you can use this so that the LA tell the school what they would consider effective intervention to be (Wave 3). Then you measure progress for one term (standardised test at the start and the end and then calculate rate of progress).

Most LAs will accept 6 months in one year as adequate progress. But during an intervention, progress is expected to be much greater if the intervention is effective. You can then show that progress is not adequate in this specific case rather than a blanket 6 months = adequate.

I got my LA to put in writing that the application would be kept 'open' and that I could submit new evidence if progress was not adequate.

Most 'failures' occur at transition to secondary. Play on this and the ticking clock 'forcing' you to act.

bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:44

Thanks bochead - I know this is going to cost a lot of money hence no new kitchen and my holiday of a lifetime to see my best friend in Texas are now back on the shelf as I start the fight. There's also concern that she may have auditory processing but the only way to get a dx there is through GOSH and not sure how open my nhs trust will be. This LA has no specialist teachers as they made them redundant years ago. The school she is in is across the border and they do have specialist teachers but cost the school £100 per hour, their own SEN budget is 5k a year.

Historically my LA have always been pretty okay re statementing - it's the placement etc that is the battle and will be my battle. I could hang around whilst they gaff around doing wave 3 etc etc but its not going to change anything and if the school were bothered they would be doing this now and they are not. I've played this 'game' so long that words mean nothing to me, I judge people by their actions only and school are doing nothing

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bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:49

Keepon - if they refuse the application I will have no option but go down the path of appealing it and use that 6 months to gather evidence. I can't wait another 6 months as time is running out- even if I win that appeal I've still got another period of time to then get the statement and then another possible appeal re the content of the statement and placement. She has so many difficulties that a bit of extra isn't going to make a huge difference - the LA may argue otherwise I know.,I am in for a long draining battle and I thought I had seen it all with the boys.,I've shown her report to a few experts in dyslexia and they all say she needs the statement. I think she has salt difficulties as well, the list grows bigger the more I scratch away at it.

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bjkmummy · 09/12/2013 11:53

You can understand why parents give up. This is going to be a very long and I'm guessing expensive battle. Looks like I need to start stocking up on the chocolate and coffee supplies

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