Please help me to help my 5yo dd at playtimes

[EweHaveGoatToBeSkiddinInSnow]

I'll begin by saying I'm in Scotland, and have learnt through experience that school help for children with HFA is practically nonexistent in mainstream schools here.

Dd has had her dx since 3yo. She attended a specialist SALT unit nursery them moved to mainstream school for P.1.

During P.1 she had a continued outreach service from the SALT at her old nursery once a week visiting her at school. That was the only additional help she had.

Now she is in p.2 and moved to a new SALT. they signed her off after one visit and her teacher saying she had no concerns.

Dd does well with school work. Has greet speech now. Behaves well. Is polite. A model pupil really.

However, it is 'free time' 'Golden Time' and intervals she struggles with.

Ive voiced my concerns previously to the class teacher. Dd started getting paired up with children begore playtimes. But it didnt last.

I go and have a peek at dd some lunchtimes as I pass by on my way to work. She's always just standing there by the fence talking to herself or walking in circles. All the other children are running around having fun.

Today has really upset me. Im on the train trying not to cry. She was standing by the fence again. Talking to herself looking blank. I couldnt help but go over. Her face immediately lifted. She asked if I was taking her home. I asked why she was on her own and she didnt reply. I spotted some people from her clasd and encouraged dd to go play with them but she wouldnt go. She said they would just run away.

Her class teacher is off for a while so who do I talk to about this when she has a new sub teacher evety other day?

I'm able to bring dd home for lunch 3 days out of 5 and can drop her back off a few mins begore the bell as I run for my train. But I worry this may be hiding from the problem instead of tackling it? However she still has opportunity to socialise during morning break and at afyer svhool club.

We dont have anything like senco or statements. sHe has nothing. You need to be severe to get any additional help.

Oh gosh, how heartbreaking to see. Are there TAs in her class that are a constant if the teacher changes every day? Or is there an inclusion manager that would be able to advise?

Hope you get it sorted.

Is there any chance they could set up some sort of club during lunchtime such as art, IT etc (something that she is interested in) and that a small number of other kids could also join in with?

Thanks both.

There's not even any TAs at the school. Nor are there many in other local schools. Again, they don't seem to be used a lot in mainstream primaries in my area. And i have no idea what an inclusion manager would be. But i doubt the school has anything like that job role anyway.

It has been suggested in the past about clubs. And this year they have started after school clubs as the staff couldn't be expected to give up their lunchtimes to run them, and they would expect an overwhelming amount of interest if the clubs were during lunch rather than after school. My dd goes to a private after school club 4 days a week, who pick her up from school at 3pm, so couldn't attend the school ones as they only run til 4pm.

I've said to dd she can come home for lunch tomorrow which she is delighted about. But she still has the morning 15 minute break to endure. I feel so sorry for her. I don't know how to help her learn to socialise. I've done loads of social stories. We've discussed social etiquette such as not interrupting, using manners etc. So she knows all the 'rules' but just can't use them in natural conversation. It's like she doesn't know how to interact/play with the other children unless she is told how. She seems to need instructions during these free times, or given a specific task.

Instead, she is left with nothing to do expect wander around talking to herself.

She sounds a lot like my friend's son at the same age. He also has HFA.

Reception and year 1 were tough for him tbh, esp the free play element which he hated. The school tried various things - pairing him with different children each week so he'd have someone to play with. The other children were carefully chosen and wrote sweet little 'books' about themselves and what they liked to play which my friend would read to him to prepare him. Honestly though, it wasn't very successful as he just couldn't see the point in, or enter into, their pretending type games (which is mostly what they play at that age) and would only play for a few minutes before getting stressed and withdrawing.

After that he hung out with the play leaders for a few months (they organise games for anyone who wants to join in). Then in year 2 the kids are allowed to go to the library, or play board games if they want and he liked that more (because board games have rules and its easier being friendly with someone in a more structured environment).

Now in year 4 he's really into football and Liverpool FC (in a very HFA obsessive way) and that's really helped massively as talking endlessly about football means he fits in fine, has made (slightly limited but real) friendships and can play football very break time (again consistency and rules). He's happy now but it has been a long road (tho school is still stressful in lots of other ways).

Anyway, sorry about the essay. Point really was that you and school need to work together to develop some strategies to help her. But also, that you may have to try several things before you find something that works and that a lot will depend on what your dd actually wants to do, or play.

Another point is that it can get better (wish df had known that a few years ago).

HTH

Poor her. My ds was like this too, though now it's part of his statement that his TA/another adult will check him in the playground and initiate games with him and other children. Also this term have implemented some 'games clubs' at lunchtime (organised by senco) which has helped.

You say there is no senco - but who is responsible for the children with SEN? There surely must be someone! Headteacher? I would ask for meeting with whoever does have responsibility, as surely legally there must be?

Who is in the playground supervising the children? Perhaps you could see if whoever is doing that (whether dinner lady or teacher) can start some group games and make sure dd is included. Things like What's the time Mr Wolf or Duck, Duck, Goose are good for this age group generally, and would probably be great for dd too as they don't rely on making conversation. Might be considered "too much" for them to take on though but keep pushing. Maybe even offer to go in yourself as a volunteer - no different really from the usual parent volunteer stuff like reading, arts etc.

While the CT is away, speak to the supply teacher - they are still acting CT for this period.

Longer-term - have you considered a statement? You say only for severe difficulties, but social isolation is severe. Is she on School Action Plus, or the equivalent? IEP?

Do you know about Enquire? You can phone them for advice and they will tell you what your rights are regarding Additional Support Needs at school in Scotland. I phoned them and found them very helpful, they also posted a lot of information out to me.

Does your dd have an ASP (Additional Supports Needs Plan)? My ds has an ASP and one of the support needs is to develop his social skills. To help him he has a P7 buddy to support his interactions with his classmates in the playground and at lunch time. Have you met with the school's Educational Psychologist to see if they can suggest things that may help support your dd at playtime?

My ds had a problem during Golden Time last week. Have you asked the teacher if he/she can be more supportive to your dd during golden time? I think I will have to ask my ds's teacher. I can understand how you are feeling, it is such a worry.

Have you visited the other schools in your area? I started my ds at a local ms school and did not think he would get on very well there so moved him to another local ms school and can not believe the difference. The new school is so much better.

I hope things get better soon x

Hi Ewe, I don't know about the set-up in Scotland but it sounds like the school should be doing much more for your DD. Just because she is thriving during structured teaching times doesn't mean she is fine during unstructured time/ break & lunch-times; as a girl with HFA, the school needs to recognise that these are the times when she needs support.
For comparison, I live in NI - my DD is 4 and is P1 ( YR equivalent). She has a part-time statement; her behaviour is good and she is keeping up well so far. At the moment at home I very much focus on social stuff, and the school have been fantastic with this. When she started in Sept, she played on her own during breaks, so the TA then supported her in playing with small groups. Her teacher told me last week that DD is playing quite well with her peers - with the TA in observational mode.
I can understand you wanting to take your DD home at lunch; but this doesn't address the difficulties, plus I'm sure it must be stressful for you. Speak to the HT and ask them to specify how the school is going to support your DD with social interaction.

Thank you all. so much for your advice.

There is usually one person of staff supervising breaktimes (the janitor or a staff member from school office). I've told dd to go to her/him if she's feeling lonely, and dd's teacher has reminded her to do this, but dd just wont.

And i feel as though this is now an awkward time of year for me to start raising issues. Especially since the class teacher is off for a while.

I'd rather leave it until after Christmas. Otherwise i feel the conversation will be forgotten about over the holidays.

We don't have statements up here. Instead, we have something called Coordinated Support Plans. She doesn't have an ASP either.

She had something similar though last year in p.1. I think it was a learning support plan. But the HT at the review meeting said she didn't think a new one was needed for P.2. But that if i had any issues, i could arrange another meeting or talk to the class teacher. She also said that review meetings are no longer needed and that the usual twice yearly parents meetings would be fine. But that i could contact them in between to discuss any issues.

My dd is apparently the 1st pupil at that school with a dx of autism. So the HT and DHT informed me when she enrolled. So they're all pretty clueless and just treating her like all the others.

There's another child a year younger that has started P.1 this year who has autism, and he has completely thrown them. He is far more 'severe' than my dd. He has been allocated a TA (again this is only for a year; it's an outreach service from his old specialist nursery), and only attends school up until lunchtime each day. After talking to his mother, the school also feel that he wouldn't qualify for a CSP. So there's no hope of my daughter getting one.

I just feel really silly, embarrassed even, going there again about the socialising thing. I feel wrong for asking for extra help. Her DX report is like a weapon i should be using. It proves she has a disability. And it should aide me in getting her some much needed extra help. So why am i so embarrassed to use it? Because i think the school will roll their eyes and think i'm being precious.

Because none of them notice/see her at play times, they won't understand the issue.

DD stands at the opposite end of the yard from the playground monitor as well, so he/she never notices dd either.

i really need a plan of action.

Until Christmas, i will bring dd home for lunch whenever i can.

After Christmas, i will ask to speak to the class teacher again. This time i will be more firm. But how can i be? What exactly should i say?

If there's still no improvement, i'll call the office and ask them about seeing the Ed psychologist? Although, i have no idea who that would be as I've never met them!

I just feel as though dd needs an adult there to guide and encourage her during break times.

But there's no way in hell this will happen. Not in bloody Scotland anyway where ASD seemingly doesn't exist unless the child is extremely severe/at the lowest part of the spectrum.

I have no idea who is in charge of SEN/ASN at the school either. I feel like a complete failure. I should know that, shouldn't I?

I think i'll give Enquire a call tomorrow. Their website looks great. I'm bubbling already about the thought of sending her in tomorrow. Even the 15 minute morning break is making her nervous.

And she is an easy target for bullying too. Some boys have recently started calling her stupid names like 'meatball head' knowing this will cause a 'funny' reaction. But they're sly and do this while a teacher is not looking/listening. An older boy in dd's class has sort of taken dd under his wing though. He told me the other day that he told dd to cover her ears and tell the 'bad boys' she couldn't hear them. but of course this just encourages more name calling. And dd is such a sensitive softy. She cries every time.

I just hate that she's not thriving. When she really should be. She is a lovely, funny, intelligent girl. Oh god, now I'm crying again. I feel so useless!

i now have Enquire's number saved on to my phone. They seem perfect to talk to. The vast majority of ASN stuff on Google doesn't seem to be relevant to Scottish children, so thanks so much for the recommendation.

Hopefully something productive will come from the conversation. I shouldn't have let this go on so long. It's heartbreaking seeing her so anxious about school.

Well, according to the Enquire guide, all children with ASN should have a PLP. Which is the most basic of help. Basically a quick plan with bullet points of goals. The next thing up is an IEP, which is more specific, discusses things that can be done at home, and may require outside services (i think this is what dd had last year). Then the next thing up is the CSP.

So it is my dd's legal RIGHT to have at least a PLP, because she has been diagnosed with ASD and has ASN. I feel that's the nudge i needed.

The HT and DHT are so dismissive though. They try to downplay everything. I can imagine them just smiling when i suggest some sort of plan being drawn up and saying something like "Oh, now, there's no need for all that."

So who do i approach about this? The class teacher at first?

I can't commit to that every day though because of work and uni, zzzz.

Even on the days I'm bringing her home for lunch (i live next door to the school), I'll have to drop her back at school 5-10 minutes before the bell goes. And my schedule can change, so another reason i can't commit, and another reason I'm hesitant about starting to bring dd home for lunch. She may get too used to coming home on a certain day and then become upset when i can't do it the same day the following week. Or if i have to cancel at short notice, and then hand a packed lunch in at the office for her.

And tbh, it wouldn't be a permanent thing even if i could do it. And it wouldn't help dd's social skills, as she would just cling to me. And I'd probably be too involved with her to run any sort of club/mind the other children.

Here's what I want for dd:

i want some sort of plan put in place. I want targets set out for her and i want it highlighted how she will meet these targets. i want a meeting with the CT and HT to discuss/devise this plan and another meeting every three months or so to discuss her progress.

Hopefully this plan will require some adult intervention/supervision from the playground monitor during break times. Something even as simple as that. Or perhaps starting up a buddying thing where older children volunteer to help the younger children play and socialise?

I truly believe this will help dd thrive. Because simply asking some of the other children to play with dd a few minutes before the bell each day doesn't seem to work. Young children can't be forced to play with others.

Am i really asking too much?

No, of course not.

Could I suggest, from this stage onward, you follow up every meeting with the teacher/head with a written note of what you want and what was said though. A paper trail is always useful.

Also, now is a good time to start ignoring the 'oh that isn't necessary' type comments from the school. They've admitted they have no expertise in that area, whilst you do.

Good luck.

I read the enquire guide last night after I posted. I am in Scotland and my ds has just been given an ASP. I think this may be equivalent to the IEP because the enquire guide says some authorities call the IEP a different name. I would ask the school to do one with the focus being on social skills and making friends at playtime.

When I called enquire a month ago I did not get straight through to someone. I left a message and they called me back the same day.

Do you have any support services in your area? Is there anyone you can go to for advice to help you with school? I can go to the clinic where my ds was diagnosed. They have drop in clinics. There are also support groups in my area. Do you have a support group you can go to?

Have you been in touch with NAS? They have a helpline number but can take a few days to phone back.

I know exactly how you are feeling. The school say my ds is fine in school and I feel they think I am an over anxious mum. But I do find talking to the school about these things helps.

Good luck xx

Forgot to say - your school should have an Additional Support Needs Co-ordinator (or equivalent). All the schools in my area do. They will be responsible for arranging meetings with Ed Psych, preparing the Support Plan etc.

Thanks again.

I've got dd home for lunch just now. yet another new class teacher has been looking after he class today. DD tells me that the teacher had asked dd her name, but dd was too shy to answer so hid under her desk until the teacher walked away.

i know things like this can't be helped, but the school were informed last year that dd gets anxious when new adults come into the class. She should have been prepared, or even taken aside for 30 seconds to be told what was happening/who the new teacher was. DD tells me she doesn't even know the new teacher's name despite just spending the morning with her.

Haven't had chance to call Enquire yet, but I'm thinking I'm going to leave approaching the school about an ASP/IEP until afteer Christmas, as i think everything's just up in the air right now at school, and not exactly structured as they're coming towards Christmas. And i likely wouldn't get a meeting before Jan anyway. Especially since the class teacher is off.

Or do you think I'm best asking for a meeting just now, even though the class teacher is off?

i have no idea who is the additional needs supporter at school either tbh. I've just never been told these things. I've just been told to go to the class teacher if i had any issues. But she's not there.

I just wish i hadn't been so much of a pushover, and pushed for a plan to be implemented in her P.2 as well during our final review meeting when i had the support of her SALT.

How exactly do i approach this? Do i call the school office and ask to arrange a meeting with the HT? Do i tell the office i want to be referred to the Ed psychologist, or do i wait until i speak to the HT?

My local council said that you can self refer, but they prefer parents to go through the school first.

Or should i just wait until afteer Christmas and speak to the class teacher?

I really am bloody pathetic, aren't i? I just hate confrontation and hate to be made to feel like I'm imagining things, which i know the school will do.

Sorry, i'm bombarding you lovely people with my silly questions when really i should be speaking to Enquire. Even the thought of phoning them fills me with nerves!

It is heart-breaking for you to see but do you think it is also heart-breaking for your daughter? My ds has at times said he prefers pacing up and down the playground to playing games with the other children. There is enforced socialisation in the classroom and it is a faint possibility that your dd isolates herself because she needs a break. Totally, different matter if she is telling you that she is unhappy or that she wants the others to play with her. The school did set up a lunchtime club for my ds's which they seemed to enjoy although didn't really help improve their social skills - mind you it ended up being the four boys in their year with major social problems so perhaps not a surprise it wasn't a great success.

that is a very interesting point, oneineight.

op - you are not pathetic!!! you are the same as me. I hate having to speak to the school or anyone about my ds. I feel that they dont believe me and dont take me seriously. I get nervous and anxious. You are not alone in feeling the way you do.

You need to do what feels right for you. If you would prefer to wait until after Christmas then wait. If you feel that your dd needs your help now then I would phone the office and ask them who would be the best person to talk to. At my school it is usually the deputy head I would speak to.

Good luck x