The 'Fine at School!' Chestnut

[cardboardcactus]

9yo DS with AS tells me morning, noon and night that he hates school. I hardly need to go through the next bit it's so predictable: the school says 'we just don't see that' (therefore we don't need to do anything about it, ahem). So the anxiety and school refusal have nothing to do with school apparently! Just wondered if anyone could link to an authoritative article, doesn't have to be super-academic, in fact preferably not, about this age-old issue, about how it is incredibly common with AS, to present to DS's class teacher to 'further his understanding'!

Thanks Polter, that's great. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. Amongst the autism 'community' this phenomenon is such a given, yet even the inclusion team at DS's school don't seem to 'get' his unhappiness there. Even an autism specialist came to his school to observe him recently and make recommendations and she maintained he seemed very happy, and the school have since quoted her on this, as a means to dismiss my concerns. They think of it as a transition issue in the mornings (home to school) which definitely plays a part, but he is utterly consistent, whatever time of day you ask him, that he hates it there. I must admit I'm starting to doubt my take on this, but I can't imagine DS would keep saying it if it weren't true...

My Dd3's school is a good, inclusive school but even they are playing that card at the moment with me.

They have tried to blame absolutely everything in the book for Dd3's unhappiness except for the one thing thatshe keeps telling us. She hates her teacher.

They will not accept any responsibility for Dd3's reluctance to go to school. She didnt do this last year, or the year before that. In fact the last time she was so unhappy was just before we took her out of the totally inflexible school she was in.

I give up (throws hands in air and the towel in). We are at stalemate now.

I hope you have more success than me cardboard Dd3's school are reluctant to even get the Ed Psych in because apparently all she will see is Dd3 getting on with her work!!!

Good luck

That made her sound like a brat, she is only able to say she hates her teacher. Actually she is frightened of her because she shouts and continuously moves disipline boundaries and makes ridiculous sweeping statements that send Dd3 into a total meltdown (at home).

But of course to Dd3 everything a teacher says is the gospel truth and can never be changed and cant possibly be wrong because the teacher said it (we so need a wall/head/bang emoticon)

Hey ho onwards and upwards

Thanks patience and she doesn't sound like a brat to me at all!
It very hard and it's complicated. My DS hasn't identified a specific thing that bothers him, he just says it's everything. And I suspect that he does have good times at moments, has a laugh at playtime sometimes etc, but his overall sense of it is that he hates it. So I'm guessing it has to do with his limits, ie the school day and all that goes with it - sensory, social, having to concentrate etc - cumulatively pushes him beyond the limits of what he can comfortably deal with, and it's that impression that stays with him above all else. It's just so very hard to convey that to the school, even though it makes perfect sense to me.

And also there's the question- am I actually correct in my assumptions?

Oh that pearl cardboard, don't forget that "every other child gets tired around this time of year, so it's perfectly normal" (recent comment from DS's CT) when I mentioned it was getting more difficult to get DS in to school in a morning. DS hates school too, he can't put into words what he hates about it either.

I'm with you all.

"But I know from days at home where he will have done loads of good things and later in the day one little thing goes wrong so he proclaims it the worst day ever"

...yes yes yes!!!! dd2 does this. A manifestation of her inability to put herself not at the epicentre of absolutely everything. She is normally in full flow when she says this (which makes it easy to see it for what it is).

However what is also true is that school takes her to her limits, cumulatively, as cardboardcactus so brilliantly put it. dd2 is now having her needs met at school after a long fight so moans about school but nonetheless mostly enjoys/copes. The moaning is a reflection of the monumental effort that's going in. dd2 is above average intelligence but her processing speed in the presence of language load is on the 16th centile (very slow) so taking in what is going on/being said is a mammoth task which she is entitled to huge amounts of praise for.

I have now stopped stressing about the fact that dd2 does no clubs out of school. I know she simply needs down time after the school day. dd2 goes to SLT on Thursdays after school and she is normally at what we would describe as 'number 2' on 'the Incredible 5 point scale' which we use to describe levels of anxiety. It's good. And there's an app! Another good resource.

The Huebner CBT books are excellent. dd2 likes 'When you Worry to much' book.

Ask them how they know he is 'fine', how do they monitor it.

I agree that school pushes our children beyond the limits that they can cope with and I know how good Dd3 is at masking her difficulties at school. I just wish that staff members would recognise this too and instead of saying "She seemed fine to me" would go to her and say something like " I know that the change in timetable was hard for you and well done for coping so well with it"

I think if it was recognised by school that she does work so hard just to be there it migt help her to feel more positive at the end of the day when she is totally wiped out with all the effort.

I also wish they would use the damned communication passport instead of sticking it on the wall and forgetting about it.

Can you tell I have had enough

Wow Polter, your description of your DS could be a description of mine. Very, very interesting and has given me food for thought. DS is just like that. Well, he can actually be incredibly upbeat and exhuberant, and then if something goes wrong, everything is a disaster. A long time ago, pre-thoughts of autism, a friend joked that he had a very Mediterranean temperament. I knew what she meant, although she didn't know the half of it!
So, I'm thinking - on the one hand, yes, he is not yet having his needs met at school and that takes its toll on him. Definitely. But, maybe he's having a better time there than he thinks coz the negativity obliterates the rest. This does actually tally with our experiences because when
DP or I pick him up from school and ask how his day was he usually just says 'bad'. But then, on the walk home, if we try to strike up a conversation about what he did that day, he sometimes says 'oh, we did xyz today, it was fun', or 'I played xxx at playtime, it was awesome). It has been perplexing me, but I think your description is really useful. And could provide a way past the stalemate between me and the school. Somebody once suggested getting staff at the school to take photos of DS looking happy and engaged in activities at school, and sticking them up at home, to kind of 'remind' him that it's not a terrible place. They agreed but we only ever got one picture, but maybe I should bring this up again. Thanks, Polter, your comments have been really useful, quite eye-opening. It's so good to get a different take on things, coz sometimes it's so hard to see the wood for the trees when your so caught up in things.

Hanywoman, so pleased that your DD's needs are now being met. Can I ask was there any particular support/intervention at school that helped?

cardboardcactus school are now providing for dd2:
• always sits at the front (everyone else moves with change of 'talk partner' (addresses mild hearing loss, attention and language processing, makes it easier for the teacher to monitor and prompt)
• visual planners breaking a task down into manageable chunks (deals with anxiety e.g. first box might say 'write your name')
• coloured overlays to help her with tracking
• 1:1 TA time twice a week working on reading comprehension and written work, working on same targets and using same resources shared by private SALT to work at sentence level (it has taken a long time to get this far but makes SUCH a difference) cos dd2 reads at level 3a but comprehends little
• social skills classes tailored to girls: small group of 5 kids, 12 sessions addressing issues such as: asking for help, showing interest in another person, starting/having a conversation, building self awareness
• laminated cards to hold up with sad face plus social story about 'our class is made up of 33 children and there are only Mrs X and Mrs Y to help, Mrs X and Mrs Y expect me to hold up a card to request help and to attempt the work at the same time as waiting for the help, etc. etc. etc.
•home-school communication book

That's it. She has an IEP. Has the odd blip (unavoidable): issues around PE and the odd misunderstanding with peers. She is still exhausted but coping. And (most importantly) learning.

The whole 'we just don't see it here' is why Camus are now refusing to assess after stringing me along and tell in g me we might fill in paperwork to get stuff moving.

Thanks Handy and Polter for detailing the support your DCs get. It's so interesting to see what support other kids get that, for the most part, works. It gives me hope!

We acknowledge this phenomenon and find that the pupil cannot even express what is so vile about school most of the time ( even to parents) so are at a loss with how to help. When a pupil does recognise something that makes them unhappy about school we will do all we can to help (eg no contact sports for one pupil with ASD, no group work for another in any lesson). One pupil is so negative that we have to get the pupil to recognise just one good thing about each lesson to take home in a home-school book.
We have even resorted to taking photos (with permission, for the area notice board) of laughing pupils to reassure parents that their children are not unhappy every moment of the day.
CAMHS and the EP have never been able to suggest anything more.

I worked with a'fine at schooler' not long back. On obs he was indeed managing apparently well in school. Appeared happy, joining in, playing footie at break etc. He was telling his mum 'they never let me play' 'everyone is mean to me' etc. Once she saw my report his mother realised that whilst this was his true perception it was based on a combination of catastophisation and social misinterpretation. She had been imagining her child bullied and victimised and was sympathising and very upset on his behalf. The kind of thing that was actually happening was that in the middle of footie, he and all the other players would stick their arm up to say 'pass to me' , and if it wasn't passed to him (which was no more often than usual) he would say 'noone wants me in their team' etc to the supervising adult. Having a clearer idea if what was actually happening helped his mum deal with it differently, rather than saying 'poor you' and 'did you tell a teacher' she is using it as an opportunity for social coaching, 'noone gets picked every time' ' all the players are hoping to get the ball' etc. The other stuff in place is a sensory break at lunchtime, modelling of scaling by an adult at the end if sessions (i give that session 8 out of 10 because although blue group were slow at tidying up, everything else went ok) followed by him rating sessions (this to try to change his perceptions andcgive more balance to his perceptions of the day) social coaching before he goes out to play, and close home/school communication as the school based strategies will likely have an impact that is more obvious at home.

It can work well if school and parents work together. This site has really helped me work with some parents more effectively.

My son hates school too. The only way he knows to tell me something is wrong is to start battering me. If I get verbal or physical abuse, I let school knw and between us we work out the issue. I'm usually right. He is a typical pressure cooker asd though and sometimes doesn't wait until we've left the school before he starts letting off steam on me. Tbf, school have been ultra supportive and they are starting to see more tears and frustration. According to his y4 teacher, good days are when he gets through without crying. But he doesn't need a statement or 1:1 support. Yeah right.

My son hates school too. The only way he knows to tell me something is wrong is to start battering me. If I get verbal or physical abuse, I let school knw and between us we work out the issue. I'm usually right. He is a typical pressure cooker asd though and sometimes doesn't wait until we've left the school before he starts letting off steam on me. Tbf, school have been ultra supportive and they are starting to see more tears and frustration. According to his y4 teacher, good days are when he gets through without crying. But he doesn't need a statement or 1:1 support. Yeah right.