How much £ does a MS get for funding a child with a full statement?

[Lesley25]

Hi everyone,
I know this isn't my concern, but after several meetings with the school i do feel that the funding- and lack of it so to speak, is being shoved under my nose.

I don't suppose anyone out there knows how much (in £) a school would get for a child with a full statement? Are they really out of pocket??

LuvMyBoyz, So, if a school in theory didn't have any sen children in their school , what happens to that money in their budget that they otherwise would have used on a pupil who needed 20 hours of support. I mean what does it get used on instead or is that up to the school and they don't need to explain it?

Special schools are funded differently to MS schools:

MS = AWPU (up to £4k) then spends notional SEN budget up to £6k, then LA top up.

SS = place value funding. £10k per child baseline. Then top up.

The big difference is that in MS you are as likely to get a new LSA who thought it would be nice to help children and has to learn on the job as anything else. In Special School you are more likely to get LSAs who are highly experienced in SN and are used to implementing SALT and OT programmes, etc. So in MS you may get your 1 hour of SLT per week. In SS you might get your 1 hr SLT plus 24 hours continuation throughout the curriculum, even as the OT programme is being delivered, etc.

Lesley, the SEN budget is notional - it isn't a separate budget, it's simply an amount of money that is written down that the school should be able to use for SEN. If they had no children with SEN, they could spend it on anything they wanted, which is part of the issue in some schools.

The SEN budget for schools also includes all sen not just those needing 1:1. So everything from a pencil grip upwards could be sen.

The new funding arrangements mean schools now have to prioritise the children with statements (as they must put in the £6000) over lower levels of sen. I suspect in many schools this means those on school action and action plus will lose out (or will be more piggybacking on TAs in statements). Certainly our school has lost several class TAs this year who would have done small groups etc with school action / action plus children, while those with statements (or waiting for statement) who clearly need 1:1 have kept theirs.

For SS costs £10k is the base cost - most children's actual placements will be more than this and topped up again by LA. Here local SS is about £16k for MLD and £20k for SLD plus transport

The reason SS have a minimum £10,000 per place cost is that LAs used to argue their own SS were nil cost (as the building and staff were already funded) so if a parent wanted an indep SS or SS in another LA was told it was inefficient use of resources - so its supposed to recognise all SS have a cost and make it easier for parents to choose the one they want without the nil cost argument being thrown at them.

For mainstream the SEN budget is set according to formula like free school meals etc so yes its quite possible a school may have more children who need £6000 each than the school is funded for. But LAs should have arrangements where this happens. So again if a school says it hasn't the money that is really an issue between it and the LA, not a matter for the parent.

DS has the perfect solution as he has private ABA staff go into school and they are funded directly by LA so the school has no-one to pay and it doesn't cost the school any money for DS to go there. In fact they get his AWPU even though he only goes part-time and his teachers spend zero time with him.

The reason SS have a minimum £10,000 per place cost is that LAs used to argue their own SS were nil cost (as the building and staff were already funded) so if a parent wanted an indep SS or SS in another LA was told it was inefficient use of resources - so its supposed to recognise all SS have a cost and make it easier for parents to choose the one they want without the nil cost argument being thrown at them.

Unfortunately, despite this per place funding (as laid down by the Dept of Education to take effect from April 2013), LAs are still arguing (near) nil cost at Tribunal hearings. In my recent Tribunal (July 2013 - so after these new fundings came into place), the LA argued that their chosen school, a mainstream primary with a SALT unit, was at a cost of £576 per annum. Where they got this figure from, noone knew - including the LA. As I said on another thread, my barrister put together a very lengthy legal argument about the new per place costings. But as there is no case law on it yet, he didn't get very far with it and he and the judge abandoned discussing it. During the summing up, the LA upped their fundings costs from £576 to the AWPU (approx £2.5k for KS2) - for which there is a lot of strong case law that this has to be the starting point for any costings for school places.

However, as the Tribunal ruled that the LA school could not meet need, the costings became irrelevant so I'm still none the wiser how the LA could argue £576 per annum (then upped it to £2.5k AWPU) but weren't forced to declare it to be the minimum £10k. I suspect that they would argue that the AWPU is per pupil and so is transferable from school to school, whereas the new funding of £10k is per place within that school and so is not transferable.

I think that this issue of the new funding/costings rules are going to run and run until some poor parent has to go to the Upper Tribunal and force new case law. I'm just glad it wasn't me.

The new funding arrangements mean schools now have to prioritise the children with statements (as they must put in the £6000) over lower levels of sen. I suspect in many schools this means those on school action and action plus will lose out (or will be more piggybacking on TAs in statements).

Today I went to see a 'good' infant school which is in a 'deprived' area. These are the HT's words - "children here come from needy backgrounds and some require a statement but dont have one". She even went on to tell me that some kids have more needs than my own daughter, yet they dont have statements(because apparantly those mums arent on mumsnet parents arent educated enough to follow this through). She then said "If you have a 25hr/week statement, we will use that LSA for all children not just your daughter"

MASSIVE RED FLAG!
Why should my daughter not get the educational provision that her parents fought hard for?

Amen to this:
DS has the perfect solution as he has private ABA staff go into school and they are funded directly by LA so the school has no-one to pay and it doesn't cost the school any money for DS to go there. In fact they get his AWPU even though he only goes part-time and his teachers spend zero time with him.

I just keep hearing this new funding malarky from the HTs.. I even went on to tell one SENCO that I have the city's best fighting for my daughter's statement, you will get a fully funded ABA child - do not worry about the funding, just focus on whether you can accomodate ABA or not(Massive mistake, laying all my cards on the table )

salondon - "If you have a 25hr/week statement, we will use that LSA for all children not just your daughter" - Thats unbelievable.

But if its written in the statement that this provision is for your child, how on earth can they make it so that this provision is shared?!?!
These sort of things from HT's makes me cross.
Like they have the power to be able to do this?!!?!?

'But if its written in the statement that this provision is for your child, how on earth can they make it so that this provision is shared?!?!
These sort of things from HT's makes me cross.
Like they have the power to be able to do this?!!?!?'

They do have the power to do this Lesley and it is widely accepted by all but the policy-makers that this is what happens.

Schools justify it to themselves on the basis that they are doing the best for ALL children, not just those with the loudest shouty parents and therefore any resources one pushy parent brings to the school should be used to keep the aggressive unstatemented child babysat for all children, especially as the TA is now funded from the whole school budget conveniently forgetting that this budget now includes the SEN unringfenced element.

This is actually the reason why my ds is in special school.

His behaviours were not affecting anyone but him, so his resources were being reallocated. I fought for ABA but imo it is the inability to share resources that is the main reason LA's fight so hard against it.

It's all a lie.

You see this is what makes me want to send my child to a private mainstream school and fight the LA to pay for TA, SPLT and OT. I will cover the fees.
This might be one way of keeping that TA doing what he/she is supposed to do.
The more and more i think about it, the more i think the idea's a good one. I just need to find a private NT school who would accept my child on this basis.

I'm afraid that a LA can refuse to fund the SEN provision in a private school.

Sorry. I'm not trying to depress you. But you have to understand that the system relies on resources that shouldn't be, being shared.

A tight statement, with some level of accounting that can demonstrate the TA's role and responsibility could get you what you need. That is why ABA is so good as every minute of their time is documented (okay there is some flexibility, but even that will be evident).

Yes that sharing resources in the name of 'we want the child to be indepesent' bit never made sense to me. When the child is ready to be independent the EP will say son by on earth does the HT take it upon herself is beyond me.

Its all about money as far as these HTs and SENCOs are concerned.

The HT I met today was moaning at me because the lea won't issue statements. Well that isn't my eff-ing problem. I was proactive and got a statement. Now get on with your job and implement it. I wish success for all children but I am sorry, not at the expense of my very severe child.

It's unbelievable what these people think. And I have only started talking to them a few months ago.

if the child needs independent strategies they can easily be written in a statement.

A statement that specifies 25 hours of 1:1 does so because for 25 hours that child needs 1:1, not independence, though I would always argue that the child needed 25 hours to spend those 25 hours teaching them explicitly the skills the will need to eventually be independent.

Independence doesn't develop from being abandoned.

thanks Star

sorry salondon are you looking at mainstream schools?

Lesley - if you do go down the indie route (whether indie mainstream or indie ss), it'll be more about your proving that state mainstream school (or rather specifically the school named in part 4) cannot meet need, as opposed to your choice of indie school can meet need.

My point exactly Star

Yes Lesley, aiming for as many years in mainstream as possible.

The reality is that the vast majority of mainstream private schools manage out any children with even the mildest of SEN.

I am struggling to understand why there is such an insistence on mainstream schooling on the SN boards, tbh. In my view the push to mainstream schooling as a right to all in the name of inclusion, was a fiscally driven one.

Sharing the same air as NT kids isn't 'inclusion'. Sitting at a table in a corridor all day isn't 'inclusion'. It's just presence in the same building.

DD1 made her first real friends when she went to special school. Finally there were children who saw her as an equal and didn't mother her or treat her like some pitiful creature who needed protecting.

Lesley, I have found the right school for my ds which is private mainstream, but am in the process of trying to get the funding sorted. Ds has cp so his needs are physical, and what I want is the extra support (medical) he gets in nursery now. No-one can tell me how this will work out, but state provision is not right for ds because of the size of the school and the classes (he'll get knocked over more - everyone agrees). I suspect I will end up paying the £6,000 notional sen budget that goes into state on top of the fees, and hoping the lea will top up further.

Irritating thing is I know we would have got medical hours under the old system. Even ed psych says we would have done.

lougle - I completely agree with you. I dont think mainstream schools work for most kids. My own daughter may or may not cope and more importantly learn in a MS school. However, atleast in our case, when I went to see the ARPs(additional resource provisions) and the only SS in our borough I did not get the impression that they can educate my daughter any better. They are the right place for a lot of kids. However, they did not asnwer any of my questions about Speech and language as well we as social skills.

I have also been led to believe that once a child is in a ASD unit/ARP/SS, ABA is near impossible to get funded. Ours could be an isolated case. The staff in those schools were telling me how good their strategies in dealing with ASD kids were and I was thinking, I already do all this in my home program. What is the extra I will get?

Atleast my experience has been that SS/ARPs etc work for kids whose parents/carers havent gone that extra mile in the pre school years. If as a parent you have very high expectations from the edcators of a child who is least motivated to learn any new skill, the SS etc wont work.

So its either MS + ABA for us or an ABA school. If I can get neither, I will fight for homeschool. If I loose out on that too, my daughter will go to whatever is available and her real education will happen at home during evenings/weekends/school holidays

Apologies if I have hurt any feelings.

"Atleast my experience has been that SS/ARPs etc work for kids whose parents/carers havent gone that extra mile in the pre school years."

You're right, that insinuation does hurt.

Apologies Lougle. In my borough every NARP/ARP I went to, I was treated by a caring carrot type. I am not saying that kids who go to SS or ARPs ALWAYS come from families who didnt care in preschool. I am saying that, when I went to the school, the staff were telling me about strategies that seemed very basic to me. If those kids are still benefitting from those strategies then clearly much hadnt been done with those kids.. Not saying, its any one particular parent. My own daughter is benefitting from those strategies, but I dont want to wait till she is in school to put those in place. In school I have higher expectations of her(and believe me she is very severe)

zzzz - Our posts probably crossed. I have a non verbal, severely global develomental delay autistic child. She is 4 and in the lowest percentile - 1%.

Like I said, this is my very limited experience and exposure in my borough. I will repeat what I said before, I am not saying its poor parenting. My daughter isnt toilet trained, doesnt sign, wont feed herself and usually doesnt co-operate. What I am trying to say is that, I think (and wish I had done earlier), these things can be caught (in severe kids atleast) very very early on. Like at 2. I dont understand why a SS reception teacher would be telling me how they let children play in water becuase its what they want to do. I thought they would know that a SN ASD mum knows all this just stimming and not education(and I know some kids - mine included - need to stim at a regular basis). Probably I had higher expectations of the special school. I got nothing in the Q&A sessions with them which made me think "yes this is a special provision and they will go that extra mile (which I have failed to go even though I am trying so hard)" . They showed me water trays and sand pits and said this is how they work on sensory issues. Showed me a sensory room with lots of lights - I am probably an isolated case - but doesnt a child already expwerience all this in nursery/playground/soft play areas before they reach reception? And cant a parent already access all this in the community anyways?

I was expecting to see OT working 1-1 with kids on pincer grap, vision therapy for children with those problems(which mine has, she has depth perception issues). I know every child is differently abled and some like mine are very disbaled, so why not work harder with them? Rather than just dishing out plain vanilla "tactile treasure box" and "blowing bubbles" techniques? I was expecting them to show me a room where the kids get a sensory diet.

I can only repeat, that this was my exposure to SS and ARPs. Please do not take this personally. I apologise to you and Lougle and any other parent I might have hurt.