Would speech therapy help - Cos I certainly haven't so far!

[youarewinning]

DS (8.11) still cannot get directly to the point when he speaks.

EG. Driving along the other day and a car went down the bus lane the wrong way to turn up the way one street - we were coming the over way to turn up same street. I saw this.

DS then starts - if a car is on a road that only goes one way, but the other way is a bus lane, and the traffic lights go red...........blah blah blah. Then he ended.

I said to him - "DS, are you asking if I saw the grey car go up the bus lane and is he allowed to do that?"

DS: "yes"
Me: "no"

At friends the other day and DS came back - we had asked a passing child to tell them too . DS arrives back without friends DD's who are up the road.

Friend: "DS where's the girls?"
DS: "I think DD2 has fallen off her bike"
F: "is she hurt?"
DS:
F: "DS, did DD2 fall off her bike and hurt herself?"
DS: "I think so"
F: "You think she's hurt"
DS: " I think she fell off her bike"

DD1 comes back and friend asks her where DD2 is - DD1 says helping their friend who has fallen off her bike.

Daft thing is he talks incesstantly to himself, especially when playing minecraft but actually asking a direct question seems so hard for him - and when he does ask for something - eg chocolate in shop he'll mumble. (although that maybe because he knows thinks I'll say No!

Should I ask about SALT referral or any other ideas how I can help DS?

These sorts of problems can be part of a whole host of problems. Or an isolated thing that needs to 'catch up' (depends on how pervasive the difficulty with direct questions is). My eldest dd (now 10) had a lot of problems getting to the point when speaking, but not with understanding (dyslexia). My youngest dd has all manner of problems and can also speak in a very non-specific way and get the nuts and bolts of her language wrong, speak in incomplete sentences, miss the point, forget stuff that happened a split second ago. She also has problems with pragmatics of language and attention. She has mild ASD type difficulties and history of language delay/disorder.

What else do you notice about your ds? when he talks 'incessantly to himself' is he talking in a clear, coherent way? Long sentences or short? How is school? Any problems with writing (quantity, neatness, spelling)? reading? maths? Any concerns about hearing of history of glue ear etc? How is his attention? Social interaction? How is he with multi-step instructions? How was he with direct questions when a pre-schooler? Any concerns from his school teachers?

He does have other difficulties and we have been referred to Camhs.
His writing is poor (2A), maths is way ahead of expected level - he is not at risk of dyslexia.
I sometimes thinks he has problems understanding - he finds it hard to follow multiple instructions and has a poor working memory. When he talks to himself he uses coherent language but doesn't always finish what he is saying before starting the next sentence, as he doesn't when talking to others.
He didn't start speaking until late compared to normal milestones - still babbling at 18 months, but did have 5 or 6 words by 2. He was 3 before he talked clearly and in sentences.

His general language and discussions are generally about what's on his mind and his thoughts and he tries to push these onto others - one of the reasons we have been referred to Camhs as he has poor social communication.

Writing quantity, spelling and handwriting are appalling! poor for his age - he's going into year 5. He seems OK with learning his spellings but doesn't use them correctly in his writing. He often writes sentences and doesn't apply his phonic knowledge to words despite the fact he can't do anymore phonics programmes as he does know them all.
He will ask exactly how much he has to write and generally hates writing. (which probably does not help his progess at all!)
I've queried with school if his written communication is poor as his social communication is also poor.

I am trying to gage what services I can also get to assess DS - so if I'm not offered assessment by different services I can ask - I think I'm more likely to get help if I ask for specific services and can justify why I need/want them iyswim?

On what basis has the referral to CAMHS been made? Are school supportive of this referral? Sounds like there is a general issue with social communication, is that right? Is that the main concern?

Does your DS seem as though he is only skimming the auditory input you are giving him? My dd2 does this, it's like she only half-hears the words. Sometimes I write her notes(!), particularly for things like multistep instructions e.g. please eat breakfast, clean your teeth and get dressed, because visual input is a lot less of a 'demand' on her processing abilities.

Does your ds have difficulty seeing the point of communicating verbally and writing stuff centred around the ideas of others (ie being at school and being asked to write about X, Y and Z?) This is where pragmatic difficulties (the 'context of communication) can impeded written output. Often schools don't pick up on this.

Any problems with fine motor control hindering the actual task of writing? Is he slow to write?

I would try and get a referral to SALT. If there are concerns about social communication SALT referral should be offered as part of 'the package' (hopefully) once you are 'triaged' by CAMHS. The sorts of S&L difficulties in social communication can be significant but hard to detect (school, for instance, might not pick them up, see this thread ).

Good luck

School are now eventually on board - after DS bit children again at lunchtime - in fact most problems at school have been at lunch.
I met with teacher and head and took my dad and outlined that they keep mentioning all these 'little issues' but are refusing despite my requests to see the bigger picture.
In year R they said he had poor social communication and each school year I've mentioned it and no-one has disagreed - I went to GP because DS was getting more and more anxious and tearful and the gap between him and his peers socially is becoming more obvious. For example they play out at this age and DS really struggles and if he goes out manages about 10 minutes. He tends to just be there though - he doesn't hang out talking to friends.
I kept requesting ed pysch and/or statementing and meeting the SENCo but nothing ever came of it. So I went to GP, who referred to community pead, who referred to GP, who referred to Camhs, who tried to refer back to GP and suggested Ed pysch. I spoke to Camhs directly saying I didn't agree, was told to email and outline my concerns re DS, I did and got given an appointment within 10 minutes of them reading it.

I finally met with SENCo (who typically is retiring so passing it over to new SENCo in September) who listened to all I said, questioned the teacher on if she agreed/ saw this in class (she did) and what was being done.

When meeting ended the SENCo said "I'll be interested to hear what Camhs have to say"

Writing is slow, but has OK fine motor skills afaik.

Does your ds have difficulty seeing the point of communicating verbally and writing stuff centred around the ideas of others (ie being at school and being asked to write about X, Y and Z?) This is where pragmatic difficulties (the 'context of communication) can impeded written output. Often schools don't pick up on this.

^^This is pretty much what I said to school - that he seems to miss the point in writing, not understand the value of writing and describing something to someone. His teacher thinks it's because he doesn't read fiction but I said I think the fact he won't read fiction is because he doesn't 'get it' iyswim?

Yes - lists of instructions work - I have to be far more specific though - and include things like 'put dirty washing in basket, put on clean underwear, put pyjamas on bed.

I'm going to google pragmatic difficulties. I will also try and ensure he does get SALT as part of assessment/ support package.

Thankyou this information is extremely helpful.

Just read the thread - that's very much my DS!

If your ds doesn't 'get' fiction, he may be struggling with higher level/non-literal language, as well as pragmatics. He may therefore find it difficult to infer, follow written dialogue and the subtleties of different writing styles. My own dd2 can find reading fiction challenging, we normally stick to Enid Blyton, who has a much more 'concrete' writing style. Thankfully EB was a prolific writer...

Your ds may well prefer to stick to his own agenda. My dd2 sees a private SALT. I sit in on these sessions. When dd2 is discussing something about her life/experiences/interest, her verbal and written expression are brilliant. When dd2 is asked to discuss something abstract, her expressive output falters massively, she struggles to stay on topic, complete/structure sentences, or sometimes answer at all (she'll get 'bored')!!!! Hopefully you'll get a S&L evaluation.

Oh yes - he definitely likes to stick to his own agenda! If it's not something he knows about, not interested in, doesn't want to discuss he struggles to talk about it and his speech becomes very immature and he'll try and change the subject. He's terrible for not answering - he just won't/doesn't say he doesn't understand.

I have loads of EB here - I'll definitely give that a go. Thankyou.

Well - I looked through book cupboard with DS but made sure before hand all the EB books were on outside

Some of them took an interest - as in they are numbered and he could match numbers to index at back of one of the books

We chose a Secret Seven and I told him to read first chapter to see what he thought. Much procrastinating but I just told him he was reading it as has to read everyday! He actually seemed to enjoy it despite having to ask me about what some of the speech meant. I got him to tell me 5 things about the chapter and he could. He even asked me if he could take it to school but I told him he'd have finished it by then - we have others so going to try the library again soon and see if EB SS take his fancy instead of the DVD's and searching through the computer! We could be onto a winner

He then started reading a Science encyclopedia

Love it! He sounds lovely nice tactics btw Can deffo relate to wanting to match books to index as mega procrastination tactic - v familiar

Fantastic he could remember five things about the chapter, sounds very positive. Nice work. Hope he gets on with SS.