Social Services Children's Disability Team

[sazale]

After a battle to get my dd 14 (HFA) an initial assessment and then get an accurate assessment we have finally been allocated a social worker and a child in need plan is being drawn up.

We have been allocated a SW from the child in need team and not the disability team. My thoughts are that if she needs SS support purely because of her disability then she should be under the disability team. The disability team say not as they only take the most severely disabled which for ASC means they have to have accompanying severe learning disabilities.

They say there is no difference between the social work teams as to what we can access etc. I have to decide whether I want to go to stage 3 of the complaints procedure about this but I am trying to figure out if worth the fight. It has already been accepted by the LGO for investigation due to the delays etc in getting the assessment (its taken us over a year). So are they right in saying there's no difference? If there's no difference then why have a disability team?

My daughter is in special school, has a blue badge and gets HRC/HRM. She has no sense of danger, has quite bad demand avoidance issues and needs adult supervision at all times but has an above average academic ability. Anyone any experience/advice? Thanks for reading.

Hi there,

I have just finished working in a children with disability team. What you LA is saying is correct and it would be the same in my area too. Te threshold for the disability service is now so high, you have to have severe complex needs and life limiting illness to be accepted on referral. If the threshold is not met (we have a table to refer to) then the child will be allocated to the local Child in Need team.

The process of assessment is exactly the same, we all use the same framework. Sure, the disability service will have more contacts and knowledge of short breaks and direct payments, but this is info that the CIN SW will indeed seek out. Regardless of whether your child sits with disability or CIN, the status of them being a Child in Need is the same, as this is what the Children Act defines children with disability as. The SW from the CIN team will be up to date with all of the services and techniques that could assist you and be able to make all the appropriate referrals.

I recently worked with a young person whose sister was at the same school (for complex learning needs) yet the sister was not entitled to any form of service at all, as she did not meet the threshold for either service. Whilst she is technically a CIN she had no outstanding needs that weren't being met by her parents.

Hope this helps.

Sorry for typos, blummin' iPad.

As far as I am aware there isn't a child in need team. Its either disability team or Child Protection Team.

Disability team can provide services and funding.

Child Protection investigate.

The criteria could be different from borough to borough. Google Child in Need criteria for your borough.

I will try and dig out the criteria for my borough.

From memory a core assessment and TAC should have occurred before reaching CIN stage.

Child protection teams are now combined with child in need teams, so a CIN / CP worker will have a variety of CIN and CP cases. CIN teams can certainly refer for funding, if the child's needs have been assessed as needing such.

In my teams, you can only complete a core assessment once your CIN referral has been accepted. Once the referral has been made, it takes seven days for an initial assessment then 35 working days for a core, if deemed needed. Although combined assessments are currently being introduced.

CAF and TAC are not much use if you need direct payments, as core is needed. CAF perfect if your child's issues can be dealt with by school and health alone. If you have been offered a core, then take it. The outcome will be the same and it is getting harder to have your referral accepted!

I know some parents on my caseload have felt it strange to be transferred to the CIN CP team, think they felt that they were being more heavily scrutinised. That's not the case. It is simply to do with threshold of service.

Thanks Honda, that's really helpful.

We have had an initial assessment and from that it was felt that the family CAF would be changed to CIN and we were allocated a SW from the CIN team as the disability team said no. If we can access the same support through the CIN team that not worth the fight. I think these things need to be more transparent so that parents understand. I was worried that we were under child protection.

Not sure what support we are going to get yet and none if the workers have an understanding of ASC but hopefully they'll be happy to learn.

No way are you under CP. To fall under this category means that there will be a reason as to why your DD is deemed likely to be at risk of harm from you. There will have been s.47 enquiries and the police will have been consulted, plus attendance by you at CP conference.

CIN simply means that the SW feels that your DD has unmet needs, as you probably do hence the reason for your referral. The SW can then refer you to places who can help meet your DDs needs, such as AHIPS, buddy schemes, CAMHS LD and so on (am plucking these out of thin air btw).

When your worker is doing the assessment, invite them to view your DD from every angle. Let them do a school observation, a home observation, a community one...encourage them to work as holistically as possible which is essential for ASC. Describe your DD behaviour as closely as possible, teach them her reactions.

As you have entered in to this process voluntarily, use it to the best of your advantage. Be open and transparent and make t clear to the worker that you expect the same. Good luck!

Its not always the case different teams can access same services. Here we have disabled childrens team sw and inclusion officers. DCT sw can provide direct payments, respite placements, refer to specialist sitting services etc etc. Inclusion officers can only provide up to £300 pa mainly for access to leisure services. Inclusion officers were supposed to refer to DCT if a family needed higher levels of support but rarely did, and often didn't seem to have much knowledge about what their colleagues did. So sometimes different teams for different levels of disability does mean access to fewer services.

You are entitled to a carers assessment so even if your child is judged not disabled enough for certain services SS should still consider the impact on you as a carer / siblings etc and can (but are not legally obliged to) offer services to you as a carer e.g. short breaks or direct payments. Contact a family has useful leaflets explaining assessments. Also Council for Disabled Children have some legal guides by a barrister called Steve Broach you can download.

There should be two assessments one for the child and one for the carer. Usually they try and put needs under the child as there is a legal duty to meet needs for a child whereas its optional if they meet the carers needs.

"No way are you under CP. To fall under this category means that there will be a reason as to why your DD is deemed likely to be at risk of harm from you. There will have been s.47 enquiries and the police will have been consulted, plus attendance by you at CP conference"

This isn't quite true. My ds is was under CP, there was not S.47 enquiries, no police, no CP conference.

'CIN simply means that the SW feels that your DD has unmet needs, as you probably do hence the reason for your referral. The SW can then refer you to places who can help meet your DDs needs, such as AHIPS, buddy schemes, CAMHS LD and so on (am plucking these out of thin air btw)'

SS CP have been involved since last September, ds is a 'child in need'. I have made several complaints as to exactly what he is in need of and all are totally ignored. They have provided NO services whatsoever.

"bad demand avoidance issues and needs adult supervision at all times but has an above average academic ability"

This is exactly why I was referred to CP, the SW then went about trying to prove that I was responsible for ds's behaviour and not his disability.

I have the booklet in front on me from my borough;-

"Child in need

An assessment has completed and this indicates that a child requires CIN service to promote their safety and well being.

A child is no longer subject to a CP plan that is focused on improved outcomes for the child, this plan should be multi agency and be agreed at a CIN meeting which should be held in a timely manner and chaired by a Senior Social Worker and fully recorded and entered on ICS.

The CIN meeting should be held in an environment that ensures the family and child (depending on age) can easily attend.

Everyone involved in the CIN meeting will receive a copy of the CIN plan.

The plan should include working with the strengths in the family and there are measures that enable the family and professionals working with them to show progress in achieving the outcomes - how will we know things are improving?

The CIN Plan should be reviewed at least every 12 weeks, if satisfactory progress is not being made consideration will be given to stepping up the intervention to child protection.

A child subject to a CIN meeting should be seen every 2 weeks and their views sought and recorded.

The progress of a CIN Plan should be monitored through supervision.

When it is agreed that sufficient progress has been made in promoting the childs welfare it will be considered stepping down to a TAC.

For disabled children the CIN Plan may not include social work involvement, the review of these services should be undertaken at regular intervals and be attended by SWA"

Claw, but you can be a CIN without ever being under the banner of child protection. a child with a disability is automatically classed as a child in need therefore the LA has a duty to assess. Not so for neuro typical children...there would have to be reasons for the referral to be accepted.

It's under s.17 of the children act 1989..children with disability are classed as CIN. Often children with disability will just sit as open CIN cases on the disability team simply for access to DPs. They will not have social worker intervention but will need to be open for parents to claim the money. I would estimate that 200 open CIN cases at my LA are for this purpose only.

Your child cannot be on a child protection plan without s.47 enquiries and a significant risk of harm. A child can be on a CIN plan simply to ensure that they have the opportunity to reach their potential; intervention is therefore often positive.

As for your social worker trying to suggest that your parenting capacity might be in question, that's a separate and personal issue. SW are constantly reminded to perform more rigorous assessment on parents of children with disability, simply due to the complexity involved. If someonreally disagreed with my assessment findings then I would love for them to sit and talk me through their disagreement, it is your right to do that. After all, SW are making assumptions about your lifestyle, you have the right to challenge their analysis. Your LA will have a complaints policy to let you do this. Sorry you feel that you haven't got anywhere. It seems that disability teams are so underfunded and understaffed these days.

Honda do you mean all disabled children in need of services are classed as CIN? Surely not ALL referrals to child protection are accepted just because the child has a disability. Although I totally agree a disabled child in need of services is indeed a CIN.

IF in the OP's case it is just a case of the disability team are just too overworked and Child Protection are not, why can it be stepped up to Child Protection intervention? Protection from what exactly?

SW made no assumptions about my lifestyle, in fact she commented that I was a good parent and was able to put the needs of my child first. Just whenever I didn't agree with her, she wheeled out the threat of CP.

I asked the school and the LA for educational help and support for my ds, much like the OP has asked for help and support. Their response was to report me to CP and blame the parents for his difficulties, rather than spend some money and give him some help.

I dealt with one SW after another, who were incapable of reading a report or understanding ds's complex issues and the fact that his difficulties were educational related.

I made 2 official complaints about procedures not being followed and the conduct of the SW and have chased them up numerous times, directly to the SW involved at the time and to her boss, all totally ignored.

Seems to me in some cases, the response for asking for help, support or funding is met with referrals to CP and blaming the parents, to avoid spending money. Especially when the child has demand avoidance.

"Disabled children's service" (in my borough)

The disabled children's service is a specialist team responsible for the assessment of disabled children up to the age of 18 and the provision of information, and the packages of support to meet their assessed needs"

The team provides services to children aged 0-18 who are able to be registered as disabled children under the following categories
?Significant learning disability
?Physical disability
?Chronic ill health.

It goes on to talk about respite, care packages and short breaks etc, etc

"Child Protection Service" (in my borough)

This service is available to children and families in the Bexley borough where children are vulnerable because of family crises, severe relationship difficulties and/or developmental behavioural needs.

Child protection referrals are undertaken by these teams, and staff also offer support and guidance to anyone concerned about a child in the community.

The duty social workers will also look into cases where children may be at risk of harm, and take steps to protect children where this is necessary.

The aim of this work is to reduce the risks to the child. In a few cases where this is not possible, social workers apply to the Court for orders to protect children"

The difference between the two teams in my borough seems to be one team regards disabled children as exactly that disabled. The other team doesn't and talks of 'behavioural needs' not needs relating to their disability.

To me that seems to suggest that children with 'behavioural needs' are vulnerable because of family crises or severe relationship difficulties ie the parents need help themselves or help dealing with the behaviour.

Sorry OP, feel like this has hijacked your thread.

Your assumption on child protection intervention is not right Claw. A child would only be on a CP Plan if the child is deemed to be at risk of significant harm. If a child was to be escalated to CP level, you would know the reasons why. CIN work is undertaken by CP workers. If they feel that you are not meeting the needs of your child then they may state to a parent that this is placing their child at risk of harm. This is not done lightly and can only be done as part of a strategy discussion involving health and the police, definitely not as a stand alone SW decision.

Your DD may have been under a CP worker, but as a CIN?

I posted to reassure the OP and now I am concerned that this may be worrying her and, from what you have posted OP, I do think you have no reason to worry at all. Just ask for honesty and transparency.

And you are right with your distinction between the two teams. It depends on whether the child meets the threshold. No good SW will judge a parent...simply try and analyse how best to help.

I have worked in both CIN CP and disability and all of the staff we're committed to working in the best interests of the child. I know that's not the case everywhere. Good luck Claw, and to you OP.

The op asked if anyone had any experience and I have, an extremely bad one. Its not my assumption, its my experience of SS and many others have similar stories. Although I am sure others have had very good experiences, from what I have read on MN it is when dealing with the disability team and not CP.

An initial assessment was agreed without my knowledge or without even speaking to me. SW visited us and decided that ds's injuries due to self harm and school phobia (long history, well documented), which he was currently signed off from school by our GP were in fact 'gnat bites'. On this basis it was progressed to core assessment (again without my knowledge or even consulting me) Then to cut a long story very short, when I didn't agree with this and complained, i was handed core assessment and told it was now a CP issue. I was asked to sign an agreement drawn up by SW stating that if i did not stick to the agreement or refused to sign it the LA could start child protection proceedings against me.

Thanks everyone. I'm concerned because its took one hell of a battle to get to this point and have been continually lied to. Fortunately I volunteer with our local NAS branch, gave done lots of training and am doing an open degree studying biopsychology etc which has helped my image/character as a dedicated parent. I am worried that by being refused access to disability team that we won't get access to respite/DP's. I'm going to request confirmation if everything I've been told in writing. My LA don't like supporting kids with ASD full stop.

The year 9 SS transition decision earlier this year concluded she wasn't disabled under the children's act so therefore no involvement in transition. I challenged this also and I was told the letter is dated and its going to be updated. That the decision is made by looking at the statement and speaking to school and that she doesn't qualify for transition even now coz as an adult she wouldn't qualify for support so nothing to transition to!! Also said that most children now have to live at home until they're 30 due to the housing situation so would be no different to her peers. To which I replied that if her peers parents died they would be able to look after themselves!

As you stated earlier you had Initial Assessment and CAF was recommended, CAF has now progressed to CIN.

If your child has already been deemed as 'not disabled enough' to qualify for access to the disability team and wont get access to respite/dp's etc and instead been transferred to the 'CIN team' (although i dont know which dept the CIN team are from).

What is it exactly that your child is in need of?

What services can the 'CIN team' have access to? (bearing in mind your child isn't being regarded as 'disabled')

would be my questions.

Good point Claw. I don't know what services to be honest as we don't have a CIN plan yet despite the initial assessment being done 2 months ago. Respite has been mentioned but the CDT said only respite for kids with severe learning disabilities (which i know isnt true)!Don't know when seeing social worker next as she said she's be in touch to arrange a visit last Monday.

Actually the initial assessment was 3 months ago!

Initial assessment is supposed to be completed within 7 days of the referral!

3 months doesn't surprise me though. I am still having 'CIN meetings' despite never agreeing to this or being asked, despite the minutes of the meetings being headed 'TAC meeting' and ds not being subject to a 'CIN plan'.

Despite being involved since Sept and not providing a single service or any help whatsoever, only hindering or not being able to justify or explain the reason for their involvement.

I would ask exactly where the 'CIN team' are from. As far I am aware, there are only two teams, child protection and disability team.

I'm wary of wading in to a discussion which seems quite heated. However, I do have relevant experience.

DD1 was self-referred by me, to the Disability team.

Here, you had to go through the 'reception' team, in which a SW with CP remit comes to do an initial assessment. That has recently changed and now if a child is clearly qualified for the DT (e.g. Quad Cerebral Palsy, life limiting illness, etc.) then they get direct assessment by the DT.

I was seen by the reception team. The first time, I was knocked back completely and referred to 'universal services'.

I tried again 18 months later. By this stage DD1 was at special school so it was more obvious that she had significant needs. She was assessed by a CP SW, who decided that DD1 met the criteria for the Disability Team due to her needs and my inability to keep her sisters safe (she was aggressive toward them and they were both under 4).

DD1 has never been under Child Protection with Social Services and has always been a Child in Need.

All the CIN status means for us, is that our SW has to do some paperwork every so often to review her situation. We get support workers who come and either help me do an activity with all 3 girls, or just take DD1 out, as we feel is appropriate.

CIN is not an extension of, a precursor to, or a consequence of, a Child Protection status. It's completely separate. A child can be a Child in Need and also have a Child Protection Status, I believe.

Claw, I know you had a bad experience. I know there are others who have also had bad experiences. I think it's important that sazale doesn't get a message that there is some sort of skullduggery going on because she has been allocated the CIN team. It's perfectly legitimate.

Discussions & assessments about 'whether' there are child protection issues are common for 'children in need' / and often done within s17. I'd argue that social services ought to routinely do this for any child they see.

If there is 'significant cause for concern' then this is escalated to more formal s47/ strategy meetings / case conferences etc. The dodgy bit is the threat of 'escalation' being used to get parents to stop admitting how bad things really are and demanding services to improve them.

But luckily, that's very, very, very rare, because of course it would be counter-productive, totally unethical and a scandalous way to treat vulnerable dc with disabilities and their exhausted families.

Generally the way to get the best from social services is to be scrupulously honest, but in a very easy-to-grasp, non-complex, here's-the-main-problem-please-help way so no wires get crossed. And keep the 'team' minuscule.

I was so desperate for support that I told the SW I'd seen her criteria and if it would help, I would say that I hit DD1, hard She was very kind and said she couldn't write it down because she'd just watched me being hit and pinched by DD1 for over 20 minutes with no hint of retaliation on my part (she thought she was being hilarious and was really acting up for the SW).

Lougle, as I said earlier im sure there are some who have had a very good experience of SS (usually when dealing with disability team from what I have read).

I have no idea if there is skulduggery going on in this case or not. Sazale asked for experiences, I assumed all experiences, not just the good.

As Sazale said she has been lied to constantly. Hopefully Sazale's will be a good one.

You can have CIN with or without CP status, im aware of that. I feel it important to establish exactly what your child is in need of and for SS to make this transparently clear to you and who exactly is responsible for any unmet needs.

Ds apparently is a CIN without CP. CIN to us means absolutely nothing, initially it meant a place for old SW to get to so she could threaten CP action. She couldn't do this without first completing IA and Core. Now it means CIN without providing or ever having provided a single service.

So Ds is a CIN of nothing.