Total mortification!

[tigersmummy]

Collected DS this afternoon and have been told he's gone into red (on zone board, twice in as many weeks). School had the new starters come in for an hour this afternoon and change (unless broached) does not sit easily with him - there was party food and the whole event was obviously challenging for him. He was in green and in the course of an afternoon went down to orange then red for not doing as he was told. To add insult to injury, he also started playing with himself at carpet time - the (nicer) teacher said it was natural for them to explore but not everyone wanted to see it! He knows and has been told again that he can do that in the privacy of his own bedroom. It's a small village school and gossips naturally are around and although it doesn't bother me what people say about me, the fact they might be talking about my son in a derogatory manner is really upsetting. As he had gone into red I didn't let him play on the field before we walked back to the car so he shouted and hit me - he has a temper but has never done that at school. He knows that if he goes into red he loses the computer (which he only has when he has so many reward stickers) and television. If only he would bloody well listen! He is becoming so defiant and I'm struggling to be honest. Just don't know what to do...

Sorry I meant to say I have posted hear as he is going for CAMHS assessment in September for suspected sensory and/or autism.

I don't think you should be punishing him hours after an event that he 'may' have very little control over.

Ask the teacher/TA to keep a chart of incidents using ABC charts so you can analyse the behaviours and find any patters so that you can head them off in the future instead of punish after the event.

I am sorry but why are you punishing him for something that happened at school??

It is fine to support school sanctions but his time at home should be time for him to wind down.

School mismanged the afternoon and then blamed your child for playing up!!

If he has Asd he may not be able to make a link between what happens at school and the sanction at home.

X posted with starlight

Also, keeping a chart will help them and you to collect evidence for both assessment and support.

I agree about the teacher keeping an ABC it should help them to focus on what is causing his behaviours not just on the behaviours.

How our system works (and we're not saying its perfect but so far it's worked) is he needs 5 stickers for the computer. And staying in green or going to silver or gold earns one (often the last one he needs). He seems very motivated by the link between the zone board and the sticker. However his behaviour 2 weeks before half term then since (holidays themselves he was brilliant ) has gone down hill, whereas he was successfully in green, silver and gold for several consecutive weeks, he's been scrapping green and dodging orange and red. I don't know what has happened within this time frame; nothing that I can think of at home but his friend (who I always believed was a bad influence) was off for most of the 2 weeks before half term, coinciding nicely with his downturn in behaviour. I've since changed my opinion and don't think he's all that bad an influence.

What's an ABC chart? Looking back maybe the school could have warned me about the events today. I'm still not 100% convinced of the autism but I'm certain of the sensory issues. How would that have an impact on his defiance and not doing as he's told? I'm at a loss to be honest; if I knew he definitely had something then I could act accordingly but this not knowing is frustrating…

I have ordered a lap pad and a book I've seen recommended on here - The Explosive Child - maybe they will have the music answers??!!

Should school be making certain allowances knowing there could be something wrong or do they continue until there is a diagnosis?

Regardless of dx or not, they should be looking at the causes of the behaviours before they start trying to manage them.

For example, in my dd's school there is a child who was always in trouble at home time for pushing the other children in the cloak room. The reason was that he just couldn't handle the close proximity of so many children, so rather than tell him not to push and punish his inability to stop, they let him go and get his coat on his own first.

How can schools do this without having an inkling of a diagnosis though? I think our school is quite strict, HT is adamant about good behaviour which was a plus for us. But on the flip side they don't seem all that able to let things go with some children like DS who may have something underlying. DS has 2 teachers, and the not so nice one is in for 3 days. Luckily the lovely one was in because of the newbies and delivered the news in a very sweet and understanding way.

Oh I feel terrible now - he's just admitted that he hid under the table because he didn't like the little children coming in (even though one he goes to his house after school one day a week as his mum is a childminder) and wanted me. Oh the school have mismanaged this haven't they… although he does have a problem with not listening and not doing as he's told. Poor little soul

If you view behaviour as a form of communication and expression then it beats a piece of paper imo.

Keeping ABC charts will give you the information you need to keep on top of his triggers or things that he will find difficult.

The boy who had to get his coat on his own, did so for two weeks. Then the teacher introduced a 'friend' to go with him, then two friends whilst praising him heavily for his 'sensible' coat collection.

She had high expectations of him and that he would eventually behave in the same way as the others, but it was a positive way of addressing the behaviour rather than a negative confidence-bashing one.

If you punish for something they can't control or help, they will become more frustrated and upset and ultimately LESS able to control themselves and behaviour will deteriorate further.

That sounds one switched on teacher. Can you explain the ABC chart?

How would everyone discipline in this case then? I may not be coming at it from the correct angle but up until a few weeks ago the sticker for a good day at school worked.

I do agree that not knowing exactly what the problems are and not knowing how to help is the worst, so tons of sympathy Playing with himself is quite likely a reaction to the stress, a bit of self-comforting. Yes it?s embarrassing (I don?t think I knew what ?mortified? really meant before I had a kid ) but it doesn?t hurt anyone.

One of the things I got advised at the positive-parenting course that I went on while my DS was waiting to be assessed, was that what happens in school stays in school! Except for the most extreme behaviour, physical aggression. Instead I kept things very calm and relaxed and friendly at home, and I stopped any kind of consequences for school.

The thing is, before my DS was assessed, I couldn?t know exactly what his abilities were and how easy or difficult it would be for him to do the things I told him to do. He had some disabilities I didn?t realise so I was punishing him for some behaviour that he couldn?t help, or wasn?t fully aware of. The teachers were doing it a bit too, but it was worse for him when it was also coming from me and in the long run that made his anxieties deeper and his behaviour worse.

And when I stopped doing consequences for anything at school and really focussed on the positive things (even when there weren't many!) and on keeping things calm at home and trying very hard not to fret over school, his behaviour improved. Not just at home but at school too.

I hope you get some answers soon.

Good post kleinzeit.

The ABC

A= Antecedent (what happened before the behaviour)
B= The behaviour
C= The consequence of the behaviour

There are different interpretations of the C, I was originally taught that it meant What did we do as adults but I have recently been told that in ABA terms it means what was the result of the behaviour. So if the child throwing yourself on the floor having a tantrum results in them getting the lolly that they wanted then we have taught them the best way to get a lolly. Iyswim

I like C to be both what the child does AND what the adult does.

So, child eats lolly because adult give lolly.

Otherwise it could be 'Classroom very busy and noisy'. 'Child throws a chair' 'child sent to time out'.

You need the additional information 'child very calm in time out and watches sandtimer'.

I would add the time and date to the chart for each incident too.

That sounds a great chart to follow. I have for several months kept a basic diary of where he gets to on the zone board (as its the only positive communication via DS from school - otherwise as with many schools I fear, we only get spoken to if there is a problem) and also if there's been any particular difficulties behaviour wise.

Re discipline I could really do with some advice as to how to deal with his defiance, bearing in mind what he may have.

I think you should ask the school to complete the ABC as well as doing it at home.

They really should be doing it anyway if they have concerns over his behaviour, it is standard practise in schools or it should be

Maybe you need to speak to the the senco and ask her to set it up, you could suggest it as part of the information gathering before his assessments.

Definitely time and date, [Dd1 was always a pain after school dinners, I later found out they werent following her diet!!]

As far as discipline goes, chose your battles, ignore as much as you can, praise, praise, praise for the tiniest little thing "Oh wow, you ate your breakfast so nicely" or "Fantastic, you walked to the car brilliantly!" The more you can praise the more he will want to do stuff for you.

I use yellow and red cards [like football] to show Dd3 that she is pushing my buttons, she has Asd and is 10.

Good luck

DS found routine reassuring and got really upset and agitated if the routine was disrupted or changed at all. So if the routine was school, then play in the field, then home, that?s what we?d do. I avoided consequences that disrupted his routine, and I also had to avoid unexpected consequences, except for extreme circumstances consequences always had to be specified in advance and not suddenly made up after he'd done something unexpectedly wrong.

The routine got the necessary things done, all the essentials were built in. At weekends I used timetables to tell him what was happening each day ? I stuck cards on a magnetic board each morning.

Defiance can sometimes be an instinctive reaction to an overload ? ?I?m already coping with as much as I can and now you?re suddenly asking me to do something extra!!!? . ?Explosive Child? explains how to handle that quite well, so see what you think. Also kids who have sensory issues or ASCs can have a processing delay and need warning before they?ll do something. Even now (DS is teenage!) I get a lot less defiance if I say in the morning ?we?ll go for a walk this afternoon? than if I say ?let?s go for a walk now?. Or I ask ?please unload the dishwasher in 10 minutes?. It?s as if he has an agenda, and he needs extra time to put things on his agenda or take them off again. Count-to-three worked well for DS when he was younger because it gave him that bit of extra thinking time.

ABC is good but I never really had enough information to do it for school. After DS was diagnosed the behaviour specialist came in to school and observed him, she did some ABC for the school to help them manage his behaviour. It's a learning curve for everyone.

We've always used a countdown for major things since he was a toddler as found this helpful, so bedtime, bath, getting dressed/undressed, school etc. but I think adding this into school reading, spelling etc will help too.
I have found an ABC chart template so will try that and speak to school.

This morning was extremely trying and emotional - despite not dropping off until at least 8.30pm, he was awake at 5.20am - he had 2 bananas and some water (as sometimes think it may be a blood sugar thing) and he played so quietly with just his lamp on (successfully managed to persuade him to turn main light off again). Breakfast was successful too - DH is away today so left DD upstairs as he messes around when she's there (although strangely doesn't at lunch or dinner time?). However after a bit of playtime and plenty of countdown, I asked him to get dressed, giving him the option of a timer (which used to work at the beginning of the year but isn't brilliant right now) or with me helping and he was acting up. Getting under the duvet, pretending to be asleep etc. I said that he could watch TV if he got dressed which didn't make a difference, so took DD downstairs with his uniform and helped him dress in front of the TV. I'm not sure what has happened but he finds buttons extremely hard but frustratingly won't try and learn, but with his top button won't let us do it up, saying we've hurt him before doing it up. I can't recall this, perhaps it happened whilst at school? So this continued for about ten minutes, resulting in me having to escape to the kitchen to have a good cry. Then managed to get round it by putting on a programme then he was distracted enough to let me. Phew. Am absolutely exhausted and on the verge of tears. I really wanted to avoid any conflict this morning, given that I'm desperate for him to do well at school day, so I tempted him into getting shoes, coat etc and into the car with the promise with his LeapPad in the car. First time ever I've done that but it worked well and he also turned it off when we got to school with a countdown.

We had to wait a couple of minutes for the gates to open and in that short time he pushed one of his friends but then walked in ok. I'm just now DREADING the pick up and the possible walk of shame. Trouble is the teacher is usually not exactly diplomatic and walks without lowering her voice often in front of other parents. Thinking of slinking in a couple of minutes late so most people have gone - pray for rain so there's no hanging around.

So a mini victory because there was no raised voices

He has a sports morning next week and I'm now more convinced than ever that I'm going to keep him off school. Although he loves being outside, at school it has proves another stress point as he finds the sense of space overwhelming. I think I'm doing the right thing???

I?m glad you managed to give your DS a calm morning, and I hope he had a successful day at school. But this is a difficult time of year, all those extra activities.

Ah, I remember the joy of sports day [shudder]. For my DS the big issues were disrupted routines, waiting his turn, being crowded by other kids, winning and losing ? mega stress! We just about managed between me and the school. I?d bring a huge plastic mat and DS and I would sit on it together, stopped him getting into bother with the other kids between races! but it was never easy. Hard to say whether it?s worth sending him in or not ? depends if you want to see what happens, or if you?re already sure that he (and the school) wont cope he may be better just having a rest instead.