ASD to PDA.....why the shift?

[lougle]

For ages on here, we would have threads saying 'I think it's ASD' . Suddenly, there is an influx of 'is it PDA' ....why the shift?

Zzzz - it worked when I did it. I shouted at him when he was hitting her in public and he stopped at once. It could be because I'm not mum, or because as an ex-teacher I have quite an authoritative voice when I need it. I am not saying it would be easy to change things now, but if she had established different rules when he was little, perhaps he would not now think it ok to punch his own mother.

No zzzzz I know her quite well. We will never know how he might have turned out, but for sure weak parenting has been a major factor. I think any child that gets his/her own way, or thinks that life revolves around him, is in trouble. Employers certainly won't stand for it.

The home/school mismatch that ilove talks about is EXACTLY my DD.

And the not seeing a distinction between him and adults is my DS1 to a tee. I haven't tried explaining it 50,000 times, every bloody day, oh no if I have a rest, he HAS to have a rest. If I am on the computer, HE has to go on the computer which doesn't happen as we only have one!

I HAVE had a zero tolerance for violence since 2yo - but that has no effect on DD, who will lash out in meltdown and not even KNOW that she has. At almost 15, she would never DREAM of being violent...until she is in meltdown. Poor DS1 and me bear the brunt of it.

And believe me , I do understand it is all far more complicated than "just shout at them". But I know a lot of autistic kids in RL, not just on mumsnet, and have also seen many occasions when a mum has explained something away as "that's his SN" when I have been sure that it's just a child being spoilt or not having boundaries. SN or no SN, they are still children. My NF child can have tantrums too.

I have 'rules'. I have consequences. But DD still lashes out when she's in meltdown. Sometimes the walls and doors, sometimes whoever had 'annoyed' her. She then gets punished. But she can't even REMEMBER lashing out. So she's getting punished for doing something she can't even remember doing.

And STILL it doesn't stop. Even when she's lost her phone, her stereo, her makeup, is grounded, STILL she will lash out when in meltdown and not 'in control' of a situation, if she can't stop DS1 from 'annoying' her she will STILL be violent, despite KNOWING the consequences, when she's in meltdown.

You tell ME how to stop her!

I am not sure how old your DD is Merry, but I know some people who have tried behavioural therapy for years, it hasn't worked, so they have moved to medication. Can you get a GP referral to Camhs?

Sorry Merry, I really don't mean to diminish your situation, which sounds intolerably hard. But if Dd is harming your others, I would think you could be fast-tracked via GP to Camhs and see if they will pay for ABA or look at meds? Maybe at 15 even the pill might help - this was the worst age for my hormonal sd's

Just reading along here, can i ask a couple of things about ds1 and see if anyone has experianced simliar? bearing in mind he is un dx but a sensory seeker apparently. I always think ds1 dosnt see the difference between adults and children but not sure if its just normal child behaviour though in that he tells children off for things (of course the rules dont apply to him!) he frequently tells off ds2 (17 months) im always hearing from him 'no ds2 that is naughty, dont you dare do that' etc... ive told him over and over only me and dh tell him off but it dosnt go in. He also hates me being on the phone as a toddler would go totally crazy now at 7 still frequently asks, how long?, when you finished? etc, me and dh cant go into another room together or ds needs to be there or know when we are coming back or he starts crying and going into one, even if we have left him happily watching tv or something. One thing thats always a problem if if we go to visit people and they are making lunch and are making the kids something different from the adults ds dosnt think this is fair and will go off on one. Im sure he thinks our bodies are in sync, if im having a drink hes thirsty if i get something to eat he wants the same, if i need the toilet so does he...

What a pp saying above also rings true, ds does not listen to me or dh at all, if we are out the house then he REALLY dosnt listen, he NEEDS to be centre of attention at all times if i try to get him to calm down he ignores me, if his gran tells him he listens and looks afraid, of course it dosnt last but he initially listens. I dont think im a soft parent though ive tried and tried since he was a toddler and nothings ever worked, he either ignore me and carries on, stops for a moment and starts again, or cries and tantrums, now hes getting older hes recently started shouting 'NO' at me too this is a worry as he gets bigger tbh. The constant attention and reassurance he needs is draining me day by day, i cant do anything with ds2 and he needs to be involved i cant even say 'oh wheres mummys little monkey' and ds1 will say 'who am i, am i a monkey, who can i be...' if ds2 is being grumpy and i say, 'ds2 is being a grump today' i get 'im not a grump, am i mum, im happy boy, can i be happy boy...' on and on, if i engage in any interaction with ds2 then ds1 is in the middle of us wanting in on any action, if i ask him to go and play with his big boy toys he cries. I just dont understand why he does half the things he does tbh.

thanks for reply i thought i killed the thread

yeah tbh maybe im too hard on him and expect too much for his age, its hard to know what normal childhood behaviour is i dont have really any other experiance of children than my own. Its just so exhausting i wish i could visit friends and family without him climbing all over them and demanding ALL their attention and no matter how much i ask him to stop, issue consequences, remove him from the room, give him other things to occupy him he will not stop, or pop to the shops without him moving everything around, touching everything, etc hes harder work than my 17 month old.

For the record, we're not afraid of saying No to DS1. We have to let some things go, though, or else we'd be on his case the whole time. He's at my parents' at the moment and I am not missing being told I'd doing it wrong when I so much as breathe in at the wrong moment, or address DS2 by name, or sign at DS2. I don't miss being asked where I'm going the moment I shuffle my bum on the sofa a little bit. He is THAT intense. DS2 is so much more easygoing.

Ineed, last week I did the pin and cream thing. She just wiped it off because it was yucky and screened that it hurt even more. As I say, I'm praying it's a phase...

Having said that, DD1's carer had said that she's never met a child with such a capacity for stubbornly continuing a tantrum as DD3

PDA is definitely on the autism spectrum IMO, where social interaction is not too bad,communication is at first glance less impaired but actually a big empathy gap or difficulty in seeing others points of view in most cases, inflexibility is mahooosive coupled with huge anxiety.

ilike, what you say is interesting.

School were denying any problems at all with ds. They went to tribunal and said as much. Because we were doing some ABA, we were able to demonstrate, due to our data, LOADS of problem behaviours.

The resultant ruling: We see problem behaviours on our ABA programme but not at school, therefore ABA is CAUSING his behaviours.

He then did another year at school without much intervention. School continued to 'see not issues'. DS is now in a special school and they are reporting plenty of issues. Is it that the special school are CAUSING his issues?

No. It is their high expectations and lack of fear of making demands of ds. It is their understanding that ds cannot be allowed to stay on his own agenda if he is to learn anything, and that it is far better to cause a scene by addressing this earlier rather than later.

Reading the reports from the two schools and you'd not recognise ds as the same child.

Very interesting

PDA is related to but separate from Autism/aspergers, they are part of the family of pervasive developmental disorders, along with dyslexia/dispraxia/tourettes/sensory processing disorder etc. etc. each individual will present with a unique mixture of differing degrees of impairments across the spectrum. Some areas may present more clearly at different ages too, so an individual may appear more autistic at one stage and more PDA at another age. So, there is an almost infinite variety of presentations.
Obviously, like any child, environment has a huge part to play and parenting is a massive part of that. this is good because once you understand the issue you can parent appropriately- crucial for pda. Of course, if there are additional stresses in a child's life like illness/bereavement/divorce, that will impact them too.
The prob with the PDA/ASD thing is down to how the term ASD is used by professionals. ASD is increasingly used to mean the whole family of pervasive developmental disorders in literature but practitioners often still believe it to only refer to 'proper' autism/aspergers.
Elizabeth newson argued that the term pervasive developmental disorder instead of ASD to be used as they do in the US. Using ASD as it is used at the moment is like referring to the whole of Europe as France. Autism is part if the PDD family but not the whole of it.

I meant to start that with,' if I understand it correctly'