Oxygen deprivation/forceps delivery and developmental delays

[MummytoMog]

I was a bit interested by that zombie thread, so thought I'd ask a question slightly more specific to me (so self-centred!). With DD (3.5, severe speech delay, late to hit milestones, some 'interesting' characteristics) I pushed for six hours before they realised she was malpresented and stuck. By the time they yanked her out with the forceps after another forty minutes with the old ventouse, she had been sitting in meconium for a couple of hours, very low heart rate during each contraction, but apgar was 4 and then 9 at five minutes so not dreadful. She spent a day in SCBU, then three days in hospital on IV antibiotics. They did a fair old number of tests when she was born, said she was deprived of oxygen during the birth and said we probably wouldn't know if there was anything wrong with her unless she didn't hit her milestones (I was listening to the paed while being stitched up and off my head on drugs, so don't remember all that well). Anyway, we put this out of our minds until DD failed to talk. Now I find myself dwelling on it from time to time.

Is there a link between poor condition at birth and delays/ASD? What's your experience?

Yes. There is a link between poor birth outcome and neurological problems. The problem is (and this is a huge problem) many neurological problems are impossible to PROVE were an outcome from a problematic birth and even harder to PROVE were an outcome of any mismanagement.

There will be many children who have forceps deliveries and apgars of 4 who do NOT have neurological conditions.

I, personally, believe that one of the autisms is caused by a huge hormone imbalance of too much adrenaline to oxytocin during late pregnancy and labour caused by our poor maternity services, but that appears to be a taboo area for those who do this kind of research.

I have done fair bit of reading on this topic and nothing is conclusive. We dont even know if diffcult births cause neurological problems or vice versa. I know women who had difficult births and their children are fine. And you will find many on this board who didnt have difficult births & C-sections. I have read that c-sections can lead to retained reflexes but then again, I know several healthy c-sxn babies/toddlers.

My labour wasnt very dissimilar to yours.

1- DD (3.5, severe speech delay, late to hit milestones, some 'interesting' characteristics)
2- I pushed for four hours before they realised she was malpresented and stuck. 3 - By the time they yanked her out with the ventouse(in their 5th attempt), she had been sitting in meconium for a couple of hours, but apgar was 9
4 - She still has some bruises on her head. They said it will go within 12 mths.
5 - I did not even have the sensibility to ask them if the difficult birth is going to be an issue.

I try not to think too much about it

Wilf was born by ventouse delivery and has learning difficulties as well as autism and profound hearing loss. I asked Professor Winston his opinion about it during his recent webchat and he said no link whatsoever between ventouse and birth difficulties.

Anecdotally, there seems to be a lot of people who have children who had difficult births and subsequently, their children had some form of SN.
Is that because, having a child with SN leads you to look for a 'reason' and do many people have difficulties with labour and no problems thereafter? I dont know.

I do know that, there is some evidence that children who have SN appear not to engage actively with being born i.e. are unable to turn and present themselves optimally in the womb. (I am neither a Paed nor an Obstetrician).

For instance, for some diagnoses that may seem to be birth injury related, the levels in the population remain the same regardless of the quality of pre-, during and post-natal care. Which would suggest that, while some children have difficulty being born, it may be due to their condition rather than the mother's medical care IYSWIM.

DS was my only vaginal delivery (the other 3 being emergency sections). He was a back to back labour and came out in a rush. But in our case his ASD is very much linked to the fact that they discovered under a detailed scan at 24 weeks gestation that he had something called Ventriculomegaly which is too much fluid in the brain, but his was borderline and Prof Nicolides said that he would be fine. He is a deaf, non verbal child with Autism who also has a degree of developmental delay. Subsequent reading has shown me that there is a link between ventriculomegaly, autism and rather worryingly schizophrenia.

'the levels in the population remain the same regardless of the quality of pre-, during and post-natal care'

I think that depends on how you define the above. In our culture, very VERY few women have a non interfered-with birth. If just a 'little' interference can upset the whole birth process (if you compare it with other reproductive biological 'processes' such as having sex, a 'little' interference can scupper the whole thing), then those who report having had good care can still have not received optimal birthing conditions iyswim.

I wonder if any children born on The Farm have ever been diagnosed with autism.

RobertWinstonWed 19-Dec-12 13:00:08

LottieJenkins:

My son was born by ventouse delivery. He has special needs. Do you think the ventouse delivery could have caused this? Is there much evidence with regard to sn and ventouse...........??

Hi Lottie. The 2 things are almost certainly unrelated. RW

^^^ Here is the link to the webchat ^^^

Yes Starlight, I agree that the definition of what is 'quality healthcare' at birth is open for discussion.
However, the point I was making is the one that, regardless of whether a population of pregnant women has access to 'good' or 'bad' or no healthcare at birth, the levels of SN in the population remain broadly similar.
I am thinking of specifically, Cerebral Palsy, where research would suggest that the levels remain the same worldwide and over time.

DS had a very easy delivery in contrast, and is still a bit speech delayed (23 months) a couple of words, will use PECS to ask for stuff, doesn't say Mummy or Daddy, will say words if you say them to him first. Everyone who insists that DD is on the spectrum points to DS as a paragon of neurotypicality though. Mind you, he is probably full of fluid in his ears as well - ear infections every couple of months, burst eardrums twice.

I'm sure I was promised that breastfeeding stopped them getting ear infections was that nine months of being gnawed on a waste of effort....?

This is very interesting .i have three dcs dd fourteen has no issues apart from being a stroppy teen she was born with a venteouse and spent time in special care with jaundice.My ds aged eight was a really easy birth however he has high functioning autism .Then we come to dd who is 3.4 and has autism and is being statemented when I arrived at the hoital I was told she was in an awkward position labour took ages and she had passed meconium .so I have had one sn child with an easy birth and one with a difficult one . I also wonder about genetics as dd 14 has a different father

I believe it too.

Oh, I see. That's interesting as I didn't know that about CP. However, I was, myself referring to Autism as the role of oxytocin in that condition has been found to have some significance.

I've always sworn the difficult birth caused DD's autism and other delay problems. The staff left her too long at lste stage, cord wrapped round neck, oxygen cut off with contractions. When she was born her apgar levels were 1,2, 3 and she was breathing but no crying or response.

she was late walking and language delay, now HFA and motor skills problems especially hands. Still seeking to get real help. I feel she has been brushed under carpet in denial.

The trauma of the birth put me off having another child. I couldnt face it. It was the second dsy I had to sign to say nothing went wrong. Bastards

My crappy midhusband was rewriting my notes while I was in recovery. I was listening to him and correcting, but I'm quite sure he wrote down that second stage started three hours later than it did. Fuckweasel.