How to discipline ds2 - nothing seems to be working.

[MissingInAct]

I have posted this initially in parenting but thought that some of you would also have some good advice re ds2.

Background: ds2 has some sort of language issues (Currently doing some assessment with a SALT) and has some AS traits (No assessment done on that one though). He is prone to outburst of anger/rage (which only happens at home, usually with his db, but can also be with me, rarely DH).

So we have this recurring problem with ds2 (7.5yo).
He hits his db on a regular basis. This has happened when he was really angry (rage type of things) and I believed him when he said he was so angry he couldn't stop himself (You could see on his face he was completely beside himself).
This however has now moved to hitting on purpose and not when so angry (ie he was in control) which I am not prepare to accept under no circumstances (Not that I accepted hitting in a rage either).

Whatever we ave done so far doesn't seem to have any effect on ds2.
Removal of privileges leaves him cold (Oh yes, OK then)
Explaining and talking makes him realize how bad it was but just do it again the day after.
Putting him in his room on his own, well he is quite happy with that anyway and has always been able to play/be on his own for hours at a time.
He just doesn't care about privileges (or removal of privileges) - sticker charts etc... have never ever had any impact on him.

So, wise MNtters, what can we do? I am really looking for something that I could do straight away and that will drive to him how unacceptable it is. Any ideas?

What is he doing right now?

I have a similar issue with DS1 and his sisters.
I have got rid of the random 'deliberate' hitting by using 'How to talk so kids will listen'.
As it focuses so much on listening to the child's feelings, it seems to help him to recognise his own feelings. Also seems to give him the 'lingo' to cope with the inevitable strifes in a family. (e.g. I sometimes overhear them talking about 'compromising' )

I still struggle (and DD's also) with him hitting out when he gets overwhelmed.
Hope that helps.

I use a red and yellow card system like the footballers.

When she is being a pain or generally annoying she gets a warning and then a yellow card if she carries on, if she still carries on or for aggression she gets a red card.

Currently the sanction for getting a red card is to stop whatever she is doing and leave the room and find something else to do.

For us atm the sanction works as Dd3 hates transtition and stopping what she is doing before she has finished so getting one yellow card is nearly always enough.

I dont use time out because she becomes hysterical and I use rewards for other things.

Dd3 is 10 and has ASD BTW, she is high functioning and has a reasonable understanding of acceptable and unacceptable behaviours.

is the anger worse at particular times or consistent?
so for example has there been any change in his anger during the school holidays?
Can you identify any triggers?

One book I have found helpful was explosive child

What does he like doing? Can you motivate him by allowing more of this when he behaves well, rather than sanctions, which really never worked with my DS. Also rewards had to be immediate, he couldn't cope with waiting for them, via sticker charts or marble jars. It depends on his cognitive ability and his personality.

Thank you all.

So far we have been handling the 'rage issues' following the 'How to talk' and the 'Explosive Child'. So lots of naming the emotions, rephrasing what is happening in a calm way, finding solutions together etc.... Which is working well when I am in the same room than ds2 and ds1, not so well when we aren't because usually the first time I know there is an issue is when ds1 has been hit.
However, I feel we have some sort of handling of the situation iyswim. Not perfect far from but slowly we have moved from just hitting to screaming first (ds2 way of 'using words') which is good.

The issue is that for a couple of weeks now, ds2 has started to do the same thing when he is NOT angry/raging as such which is worrying much more because I have as little ways to 'take the message through' than I have when he is really angry but it is a wilful action too. As if he was acting with no knowledge of the rules when he knows them.

The problem is probably made worse because of his own personality. He loves nothing more than to do the exact thing he is not supposed to do (eg if I say to ds1 'Don't do X', ds2 will immediately do it), has a mind of his own (so will only things if he has decided to do them. I have never been able to make him do things he doesn't want to do. You need to manoeuvre well to put him in the situation where he wants to do it). That's also probably why rewards/punishments do not work for ds2.

So right now, the sort of behaviour we have is (all short versions!):

• db wants to bring his bin bag into his room. ds2 doesn't want to so hits him (anger present).
• ds1&2 are tidying up, ds1 gives some stuff back to ds2, turns his back to him and gets hit with the object ds2 had in his hand. Reason unknown (no anger).

Actually, when I said sanctions didn't work for DS, that didn't mean I just let him do anything dangerous or violent! I would remove him from the situation ASAP and tell him why, more for the benefit of his victims than for him, IYSWIM. It always went wrong whenever I lost my temper and shouted at him, so I tried (try) to keep it calm.

TBH, you seem to be doing all the right things and reading the right books. It's just that methods don't always work the same way for all DC, it's a case of finding out what will work for your DS. Any idea what he's getting from the non provoked hitting? Bit of power over DS1, attention from you even if negative, interesting (to him) reaction from DS1?

@ Ellen
Very good point re keeping calm and also re the reaction he gets. Having some power over ds1 could certainly be a trigger (Think very bossy NT child who always wants his own way...).

@ Goose, yes physical feelings on how it feels when you are getting angry would be a good thing to do to.

have you tried PDA strategies with him?

PDA? what's that?

pathological demand avoidance
so you would ask him indirectly rather than give a direct demand, or present it so that he thinks it's his idea

@corny. Yes that makes sense and seems to fit ds2 quite well. I'll have a look at that.

And yes I need to remember how far ds2 has come from. Sometimes I forget how much effort/work he has done for things that would be normal for other children.

OMG... Just been reading more about PDA and ds2 fits quite a few of the 'symptoms' incl and especially the strong mood swings (both ways actually), resisting demands and finding excuses all the time....

Anyone who could advice on a good book on PDA and how to handle it?

hi my dd is diagnosed aspergers, adhd and is currently being assessed for PDA as I think this fits her perfectly and is why some of the general autism strategies dont work. The only book I have found is Understanding PDA which is quite good as an insight.

You have to be really creative and imaginative to get them to do stuff and usually when they "vent" I just say ok I know etc, is that right so they don't get the reaction they want. You will have to find different ways for different days and just because a method works once it wont necessarily work again. The biggest tip I was given is to use humour and be as silly as possible whereever you can. Pick your battles is another. Good luck

Ds2 who is 10 mildish ASD, and generally pretty peaceable, is beginning to do the random hitting a few times, when he is not angry. It is quite unnerving to watch. Like a pretend Karate or Star Wars sequence. I've decided it is a sort of "tic", like a release of tension which is just waiting and not triggered by anything in particular . His older brother who is basically NT (12) has a similar sort of tic when he makes silly irritating noises, which we try in vain to stop him making.

So we are trying to stop ds2 hitting people randomly. It seems to be a new compulsion, where he is interested to see what happens next - like a sensory game, if I can describe so serious a matter in that light. Anyway it is not usually random, just appears so; generally there is some underlying tension between the person hit and the person hitting.

I suppose the key thing is to work on him feeling relaxed and happy, and do other physical things so that he doesn't have any desire to get the sensory satisfaction of hitting something, or the need to get a reaction. So we do dancing, distracting, running, jumping, cuddling to try and offset any compulsion. But my son hits very occasionally, so it is new for us to have to deal with this. He never hit/kicked anyone until he was 8 or 9. DH actually thinks he picked it up from Dd who is completely NT, and used to lash out when she was younger. Ie: he learnt it as a behaviour model, and thinks it might be a good way to get attention in a crisis. Not good anyway

Have you heard of the Low Arousal response where instead of getting very cross when your ASD child does something unpleasant, you show very little interest, talk in very quiet voice? I think that is the sum of it..anyway we do use that method.

I think the other thing is we tend to supervise ds2 quite a lot, so I wondering if we stopped supervising him, maybe he wouldn't need to lash out to get a reaction, but just play a bit more nicely with his elder brother, as he knows we are not listening!!! So I am going to try benign neglect this holidays a bit...

P.S. Better mention that Brothers, even when completely NT, do tend to fight! That is normal. My nephews who are completely NT used to fight all the time, the older one would say something mean to the younger and the younger one used his fists on the older to pay him back as he wasn't so good at being insulting. So you might find it is a sibling thing, and they have got into a habit of communicating in that way.

Read Sibling Rivalry by the woman who wrote How To Talk.

If the trigger is his brother, then you need to work on that relationship rather than on the violence per se. IMO

Interesting idea re the fact there is some underlying tension in the first place. I will be more careful about it but I suspect this will be the case.

Yes again with 'Sibling rivalry'. It does work really well.

You have been given a lot of great strategies here (and with my experience, the way to handle challenging behaviour is as individual as the child displaying the behaviour, so don't blame yourself is not all of these are in any way effective).

One thing I was told years ago with regard to the "don't do..." is actually good for just about anyone, but especially effective for children. Children, especially ones who may be on the spectrum, think literally, and in many cases, in images. Try to imagine yourself "not" doing something - it is almost impossible. If you say "don't hit", for example, in order to visualize the "don't" part of it, you have to visualize the "hit" part... does that make sense? For us, we try to phrase instructions or directions in positives - instead of "don't hit", for example, we say "hands to yourself". It still has the same meaning, but is more easily visualised, if that makes any sense.

This may be something that you have been doing for years, but I thought I would share what has hleped us...