When do you think a child will start to show empathy/concern?

[Allonsy]

Been thinking about this the past few days, it infuriates me that ds (nearly 7) is always smirking whenever i tell him off, no matter the consequence, no matter how upset he can see i am he smirks. The other day he was doing his reading book with me and as i went to move i banged my leg and was in obvious pain, he just carried on regardless, i told him wait im hurting and he wasnt fussed. Ive metioned before that almost a year ago his brother of a few months fell down the stairs and banged his head, i cant describe the panic as i was on the phone to hospital as ds2 was in a daze but ds1 acted like nothing was happening because his friend was there and then had a massive tantrum because i sent him home. This morning he came down stairs early and dh had left the news on before leaving for work. The news was showing the story of the school shooting and ds said' lots of children are dead mum, why are they dead', i told him a bad man killed them, he asked why and i said he shot them and it was very sad. He said what happened to the man and i said hes dead now and told him why and ds laughed! i told him that wasnt nice and it was very sad and he said nothing but was smirking. Dh thinks hes to young to understand empathy is this right?

He seems very foccussed with death recently lots of questions and how heaven cant be real because there isnt enough room and you cant be buried and up there thats not possible etc. He also keeps saying if he does such and such that would be dangerous and he could die but in a very matter of fact way. I was walking behind him down stairs earlier and he said you nearly caught me mum, did you want to push me and make me dead?? i dont know where all this is coming from at all!

any insight?

could the smirking be a nervous reaction rather than because he thinks something is funny? I don't necessarily think he is too young to show some empathy, but I think it is hard for a child to form an appropriate response to the case in the news, in terms of the case of the fate of the shooter.

Yeah possibly he is a very nervous boy a worrier generally and has alot of nervous habits, but when he smirks its almost a laugh and it really does appear like he just dosnt care about his behaviour and will do as he pleases. With the news story it wasnt just the shooter dying he found amusing but the whole thing generally and the fact people were shot at all. Its like he dosnt understand how other might feel in certain situations hes laughed at people obviously disabled in the street because they look funny and no matter how i try to explain he cant do that and its not funny its like it dosnt go in and he will smirk away. I have asked him straight out before if he cares about something or someones feelings and he just says no.

On the other hand he is a worrier and is always panicking his little brother will get hurt always screaming at me mum mum the baby!!! or grabbing toys off him because hes scared he will choke on them when he obviously couldnt possibly, but when his brother was hurt he couldnt put his feelings before his own and if his brother is unwell or very upset ds dosnt bat an eyelid.

Toddlers show empathy and concern when their parents hurt themselves.

I would absolutely expect an NT 7 year old to show concern if he accidently hurt you.

How does he respond to other people laughing/smirking when he is distressed?

I would say he dosnt notice, he is very attention seeking and will make out to be in a world of pain for the slightest little thing when he couldnt possibly be, we have in the past laughed when he is like this something id taken from my mum to laugh it off and not make a big deal of it, obviously if he was genuinely hurt i give him the attention he needs. We have also on the advice of family made a joke of 'people will laugh at you if you keep behaving like that' when he is tantruming in public but he dosnt care what people think of him he has no embaressment factor at all. I admit i am quite dismissive when he is moaning as EVERYTHING is a massive deal to him sort 'oh come on dont be silly its fine...' he seems very very immature to me and often acts like a baby. When strangers talk to him in shops for eg checkout operators he puts on a baby voice and starts rolling his eyes, flicking his head back and pulling faces and doing weird things with his hands, he dosnt see that this may make him look odd, and if i ask him to act nicely he just says 'why i like it'

What dx does he have?

He certainly sounds like he has lots of symptoms / traits of Aspergers.

no diagnosis really, was told he was a bit of a sensory seeker from an OT when he was 5 after being refered from nursery this was judged by his tiptoe walking and bouncing in coloured spots apparently and that it would likely resolve itself once he started school (he was starting that summer) he recieved a block of OT at school for 2 months then was discharged. I have a few months ago asked for gp to refer him on and we have to wait for the school to do it. I have just called to see if its been done and waiting to hear back.

I understand zzzz, i suppose i just dont know how to deal with it, if i go along with his apparent distress and i know its over nothing it makes it worse which is why i stopped doing it, it would just go on and on and on and the only way to stop him dragging something out for hours is to make him laugh then his silly side cant resist which sometimes backfires as he can go from crying/tantruming to laughing hysterically and being difficult to bring back down within 3 seconds. I suppose im not very good at this parenting thing and do treat him as though hes NT despite my doubts because hes undiagnosed and everyone else thinks hes just young/immature/just a boy etc and im over analysing him. With regards to the tv i dont think he thinks its fiction we have had that conversation many times and he dosnt really get that things on the tv are not real he also thinks tv is happening in real time and the people are behind the screen.

He is starting to show some sort of feelings for me which is good progress in the last few weeks hes asking for cuddles alot, this has never happened unlike his 1 year old brother who does it often. Hes never really shown an attachment to me before at all which has been very upsetting.

We've got two (diagnosed) Aspie DSs, aged 6 and 8, who have similar reactions. For example, I fell down the stairs badly about two years ago - split my toe, cracked my coccyx, was in a lot of pain for a long time. When it happened, my two boys were in the front room and although they ran to see what the noise was, they saw it was me and, without seeing if I was alright, went back to what they were doing.

My youngest (6) used to laugh when I was cross and shouting at him, which just made me crosser. Now I am very clear about what it is that I'm cross about, get him to say what he thinks he might have done which has made me cross, and don't shout so much, and things are a bit more productive and generally calming down.

Also I've found that both boys are getting more reasonable with age so we can talk about other peoples' feelings etc. and they are beginning to empathise (in an empathise-by-numbers kind of way), and starting to make the right responses at the right time. It's still early days and they still don't show as much instinctive empathy as I remember my little sister showing when she was 2, but they are at least on the way. Having animals around helps a lot too - I've heard dogs are amazing for empathy, but my two make do with our cat because we're not really in a situation where we can have a dog, and she has helped (they pretend to be cats and cuddle up with her ).

It does sound like your DS may have some Aspie traits at least, would you consider a diagnosis helpful at all? If so, the sooner you get the ball rolling, the better, as it takes a long time. Best of luck!

I agree with zzzzzzzz it would be good to start 'voice-overing' using very concrete simple language about what is happening to whom and why and why you might all react a certain way and why he might react a certain way to things. My dd2 is very similar and thinks everything on the telly is real and happening now, she will ask if they are showing something in a different time zone if it's dark outside and sunny on the telly and vice versa. The difference with my dd2 (age 7) is that she tends to be rather over-reactive so we have to be very very careful about what she watches and can take visual images completely the wrong way.

Handywoman x

Thank you zzzz, i know i shouldnt be feeling sorry for myself, i need to suck it up and get on with helping ds. I wish id trusted my instinct in the beginning i had doubt about ds from at least age 1 thinking back and pushed them aside over and over as a stage or parenting, at least back then his problems were alot more obvious where as now unless you spend all day with him it can be difficult to tell. I dont have any concerns about ds2 15 months though which tells me its not just me ifykwim.

It was definatly more obvious as a toddler we had daily meltdowns in public lasting hours, he would be the one rocking on the pavement screaming 'too noisy!' because things didnt go the way he wanted. His routine had to be just so down to the language we used at bedtime in the correct order but he slowly outgrew things. These days he can cope without routine and dosnt demand it but is an anxious child, who has to be in control and know whats happening when, he has to be the centre of everyones attention at all times and comes across as very spoilt hes very in your face and innapropriate. Of course as he copes fine at school so according to them all is well.

Indigo - you mentioned aspergers, ive read up on autism lots since he was 1-2 years old, aspergers didnt seem to fit but then i only know what i have read up on, he dosnt have advanced speech, quite the opposite he was slow to talk and has recieved speech therapy via nursery/school since age 4 for dysfluency. He has a poor use of words and imo poor understanding, hes also not the typically intelligent or little professor type, he does have narrow intrests but dosnt know much about them, hes spent years watching one particular episode on the tv daily but his understanding of the programme is really poor like it dosnt go in.

Im not sure, nursery referred him to a speech therapist, i got called in a few months later and she told me she beleived his dysfluency was down to his moving and fidgeting about and could we refer him to OT. I have never seen the ST again i just get a letter every 5 months or so to say 'ds has completed a block of therapy (in school) and needs to work on his rate of speech and to breath before speaking, will review in x amount of months' she has never asked to meet me again or anything. As far as im aware nobody has even picked up on his difficulty with language generally which is really clear to me.

One of the best bits of advice I was given before Dd3 had her diagnosis was to treat her as if she did have aspergers as she had a lot of traits.

By putting into place some strategies such as a visual timetable and behaviour cards we noticed a massive difference in our home life very quickly.

Not only did this make our lives easier but it was also something that the proffs were interested in when they were assessing her.

She now has a diagnosis of ASD and we are still using the strategies.

About the empathy thing, my Dd3 is able to show empathy if the thing is very obvious eg she will go out of her way to help one of her friends who is a wheelchair user but she wouldnt consider offering to help me or another friend. She doesnt seem to be able to understand that someone needs help unless it is really obvious.

Sometimes she will still laugh if someone hurts themselves, she is 10 BTW

I will call the ST after the year and see if we can have a chat about ds' progress. I asked his teacher today if he had heard anything from her and got some speech 'homework' that was supposed to come home at the beginning of November.

I have started doing some visuals with ds, pictures to remind him to flush toilet, wash hands, brush teeth etc but none of it is working, he clearly sees them but still dosnt bother. Behaviour is definatly the thing we struggle with the most not so much at home but we cant go out anywhere with him as he is just into everything and very defiant, all punishment and reward things ive even tried have failed. He is sent to time out at school every other day at least, although school dont seem to see a problem with that, i do. I will just have to keep trying new things.