CELF 4 Assessment

[Kitty1850]

Advice please. Sorry this is so long. I didn't really know where to post this so sorry if this is in the wrong place.
My son is in year 4. He is real book worm and and loves to read above all else but hates writing and sometimes outright refuses. He has driven his teachers nuts since year 2 with this "problem". He is very happy at school but they sometimes have problems with his behaviour and he really knows how to push the teacher's buttons - brilliant and cooperative one minute - disruptive and unreasonable the next. His teacher describes him as "um, quirky". They recently decided to give him a CELF 4 assessment. Don't really know why they started here but I think they were thinking of the possibility of High Functioning Autism. I really don't think that is an issue as he is very empathetic and touchy feely.

These were his scores:
Core language Score 133 99th percentile
Expressive Language Index 136 99th percentile
Receptive Language Index 123 94th percentile
Language Content Index 129 97th percentile
Language Structure Index 132 98th percentile
Working Memory Indes 97 42nd percentile

The school's initial attitude seems to be "that's fine then, there is no problem". No, no problem but still way outside the "normal" range. If the results were this extreme in the other directions all kinds of alarms would go off, wouldn't they? I'm also concerned about the discrepancy between the other results and the working memory one. What should I be asking for next from the school. Or should I just leave well alone as he is a happy, well adjusted little boy generally.

Hmm...well he's obviously doing very well. Could the working memory 'issues' (I say 'issues' because his performance was around average, objectively) mean that he gets frustrated when he has great ideas, but forgets them before he can get them down on paper? Is he willing to type rather than write?

I wouldn't be at all worried about the working memory score which, as you say, is average and quite normal, were it not at odds with the other scores. It just seems odd. He does get frustrated when he has great ideas but finds writing them down so slow and dull. Of course, the more he doesn't write and the more he reads, the more that gap opens up. I have tried getting him to type and will have another go. The BBC website has a good learning to type game (dancemat) but it isn't nearly as much fun as all the other games to be found on-line so will have to stand over him like a hawk to make sure he didn't get "distracted" :-)

How would he respond if he could record his story, then listen to it bit by bit and write it out?

They did let him do that in Year 3 but his Year 4 teacher said she wasn't going to let it go on for too long and she hasn't. He did also tend to think that he'd done the work already (in his head) and still kick against the writing. I think his teacher's worried that he'll come to rely on it too much as he will have to write at some point. I have mixed feelings about it, honestly. He does write now, when forced, but it's like pulling teeth. There are those (not me, obviously - Heaven forfend) who diagnose "bone idleness"!

CELF 4 is a language diagnostic assessment tool. It is not an IQ test. Ask the school for an EP provided full WISC IV/ or BASII assessment test with full attainment testing.

did the school get a speech therapist in to do the CELF, as nigel says it's an assessment of language. Sounds like they have ruled out any obvious language delay/disorder but possibly there could still be some sort of issue with social use of language, etc.

Yes, it was done by a speech therapist. They also had me and his teacher fill in a pragmatics profile (?) but that hasn't been mentioned again, come to think of it, so I can only assume that was normal too. I think I should ask for what Nigel is suggesting. I just need to steel myself to do it and convince myself that I'm being reasonable. I don't want to be that parent (you know the one) and I don't want to pathologize things unnecessarily or look for labels unless the label is helpful. Then again, I can't face another academic year with a teacher pulling their hair out and asking me for explanations which I don't have.

I wouldn't worry about being seen as "that" parent tbh, they wouldn't have pushed for salt involvement if they didn't think there were legitimate reasons for concern. Definitely ask for feedback on the pragmatic profile. Something else you might want to consider is whether he might have some sort of physical problem that makes writing uncomfortable, such as dyspraxia/hypermobility etc.

Yes I wonder if this is a Dyspraxia issue?

HW x

I would be wondering about dyspraxia - how is his writing - is it the physical act of writing he finds difficult? Resistance and refusal would be a very common reaction of a dyspraxic child to writing.
Not saying it is - but the behaviour can often mask, what is really going on . It was the same with d.nephew and DS - they would have preferred people to think they were naughty, rather than admit they couldn't do something.

You have a child whose language has, in essence, 2 standard deviations difference between scores. There is a significant issue here which the IQ test is needed to clarify the core issues. I would also want to have the outcomes of the pragmatics testing.
Dont worry about being a pain in the arse. You are responsible for the child. Everyone else can and will walk away. You need to be comfortable that when you look at your self in the mirror you are clear that you have done what you believe to be right for your child.

Thanks all. I don't think it's dyspraxia, he doesn't have any fine motor skills problems and actually his writing is quite good (but slow) when you can get him to do it! I'm going to ask for a meeting with his teacher and the SENCO at the same time and I'm planning to ask them to get the Educational Psychologist involved for a much fuller assessment, as Nigel says. I think it's time to move beyond snatched conversations in the playground at the end of the day. Yesterday's involved the teacher looking at me in despair and saying "he's really good at some aspects of maths but in others, like time and money, he doesn't even seem to have a concept of it!" This was in a day when I'd realised that he doesn't know the months of the year in order (at eight!) and yet is more than happy to have a conversation about how jelly fish can be alive when they don't have consciousness! You're right, Nigel, I do need to be able to look back and think I did the right thing, even if it makes me a bit of a nuisance. At the end of it I still hope to have a little boy who skips to school every day saying "I'm really happy!"

I don't want to seem to bang on , but , could his writing be slow because he finds it difficult? It is worth thinking about.
Why is he slow at writing, is there anything there that makes him slow....which is creating a barrier for him doing it.

Okay I'm finally back! My son has had a WISC assessment. I don't have the full ed psych report yet but had a brief email from her because she knew I was anxious (neurotic). Broad results were
Verbal reasoning >99.97th percentile (off the chart)
Perceptual Reasoning 87th percentile
Working Memory 97th percentile
Processing Speed - above average on a test that did not require pen and paper but so slow on one that did that the test had no validity - she doesn't think he has an actual processing problem though, just very slow handwriting. Any thoughts appreciated while we wait for the full report.

Handwriting issues = OT assessment to include fine and gross motor skills and DASH 4 handwriting analysis.

Sorry on my phone so can't link but google dual exceptionality and Potential Plus - g&t but underachieving/problems writing.