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Talk to me about PDA for DS2, DS1 hasASD

25 replies

Staryeyed · 01/12/2012 23:04

DS1 (7) has severe ASD and is only just starting to talk. His level of comprehension is very low and struggles to understand simple instructions without visual cues or routines. Ds2 is 3.7 and clearly doesn't have autism. He can be quite hard work. He is also lovely and affectionate and can be very well behaved, smart and very funny. He is very controlling-he must have this amount of cereal, in this plate, with this spoon.

He shows less empathy than his sister who is over a year and a half younger. He often drags his toddler sister around or pushes her over. He refuses to get dressed everyday and if asked to do something he pretends he doesn't hear or says that he just has to do something. He goes to nursery part time although he plays alongside other children he doesn't play with them. He loves to play trains (and is a little obsessive about them)and often wants me to join in but tells me exactly what my character must do or say and I shouldnt deviate from this.

He seems to think of himself as an adult and will help himself to things in the fridge despite being told he is not allowed. He often issues instructions to his brother and sister as if he is in charge. He has never been upset about being told off, just not getting his way.

I am not a walkover and I will often say that he has to have the 'wrong' item and not engage. He doesn't tantrum but will sometimes cry or misbehave if he doesn't get his own way.

He settled well in nursery but will sometimes say he doesn't want to go no tears and seems happy enough when he is there. If asked why he will say somewhere else he wants to go to. He also refuses to go the toilet despite being trained for over a year, saying he doesn't need to go or he is too busy.

He can also sometimes say he is being someone else and will imitate their behaviour. He is quick thinking and can be manipulative.

I know some of this is normal behaviour for a 3 year old but as a whole I have been a bit worried about whether it might be more. Reading about PDA it seems to fit the bill.

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lisad123 · 01/12/2012 23:52

I don't know a lot about PDA but sounds a lot like dd2 who has high functioning autism.

Ineedalife · 02/12/2012 10:00

Hmmm didnt want to not post but dont really know if I have anything usefull to say, I agree with lisad, my Dd3 has ASD, she is high functioning. Your Ds2 sounds alot like she was at that age.

I can see why you would think abour demand aviodance but there can be a lot of that with hfa too and aspergers.

Have you read anything about aspergers??

What do that staff at nursery think? Have you spoken to the senco?

I have recently read a bit about PDA and from what I understood, children with it tend to have massive meltdowns and can be aggressive when they feel anxious or not in control.

If you are worried, keep a diary for a few weeks, make a note of all his issues/ difficulties, what causes them and how you deal with them. Then take it to your GP and ask for a referral to a developmental paediatrician.

I hope some more people come along with some better advice.

Good luckSmile

Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 10:31

I can't see autism or aspergers in Ds2 -he is the polar opposite of Ds1 who has such classic autism bit bery passive with it. I know it comes in different forms but he is very imaginative, his language skills are good and he plays well with his cousins. I mentioned the nursery thing because it might be an anxiety/ shyness thing. Not intentionally drip feeding. His control isn't about routines either, it's seems much more about having control. Its not necessarily the same thing he wants ie one day it will be the big bowl then next day it will be the character bowl.

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Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 10:38

Nursery staff have no concerns. He is well behaved at nursery but has to be taken to the toilet most of the time. They put that down to laziness/ being too engrossed in playing. He comes across as a bit shy so they were trying to encourage him to play with children with similar interests.

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Walter4 · 02/12/2012 10:39

Hi , my 4 year old boy have a diagnosis of PDA. I have known since he was 3 before knowing about PDA I thought he had aspergers. My son is obsessive about things too, often people , but till now , his favourite subject. He can take on personas of tv or real people amazingly. Is always in role play of some sort. Has huge problems going to nursey , but ok once in. He show signs of demand avoidance and control there too though,though not as bad,he goes mornings only as I want him to adjust to their demands gradually.

At home is so controlling, overbearing and can be physically aggressive if very anxious or we ignore his need to control and don't use PDA methods with him.
He lacks empathy too, though is very loving with people, just doesn't see there point of view or even that they have one.difficult with his peers .
New places etc cause anxiety, he has sensory issues though not too bad and worse if he is very anxious. He had a speach delay, but now speaks better than most. Can be extreemy charming and very funny , but this can often be used to manipulate. He is very bright.He is extremely difficult to dissuade from anything, its best to offer choices , time to comply, and humour. Will not go along with a suggestion....ever!

You're son seems to sound like mine but not so bad? Possibly? Children with PDA are very often different in different settings.

Hope my essay has been of some help!:)

Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 10:42

What parts sound specifically like HFASD/ aspergers?

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ArthurPewty · 02/12/2012 10:48

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Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 11:01

That's interesting Walter. I have been watching him looking for any delays signs of ASD. He was a little later to speak but still within normal range.

It's the empathy thing he just doesn't seem sorry. He will go through the motions - say sorry,kiss, cuddle. I'm not sure if he is just too young or a little immature.

His obsession with Thomas the tank means he has to be persuaded to play other stuff sometimes. Sometimes he is happy to do other stuff anyway. He takes his trains to bed and loves to watch TT episodes but not exclusively also likes to find YouTube clips. Sometimes he talks about things and it's not clear if he is talking about children or TT ( doesnt help that children in nursery have same names as trains.

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Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 11:06

He can play well with toys but Doesn't seem to get age appropriate board games. We played a simple one the other day which involved a colour spinning wheel he wanted the arrow to land only on red and his sisters to never land on red which defeated the point.

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Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 11:08

Also be talks for his brother and sister and make choices for them that are his choices do ("dd1 wants to watch Thomas")

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ArthurPewty · 02/12/2012 11:08

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ilikemysleep · 02/12/2012 11:52

Staryeyed...

IMO, and that of many who work in the field, PDA children are autistic. To us it seems like a 'more surface sociability, bigger empathy gap' manifestation of autism. If you consider the triad of impairments but use 'unusual in scope, intensity or duration' instead of 'deficiencies in' to consider each part (social communication, social understanding, and imagination) then I haven't yet met a PDA kid who didn't fall within that definition.

My pet theory is that one key difference in manifestation of autism in PDA-type kids and 'ordinary high-functioning' kids is that PDA kids are more active avoiders of anxiety-provoking situations, whilst other 'ordinary HFA' kids are more passive reactors to anxiety-provoking situations.

It's also hard to get a diagnosis as it's not in the diagnostic manuals that psychiatrists have to use, but that's another story Grin

It's all very controversial though.

ilikemysleep · 02/12/2012 11:57

Adds - or 'active reactors' to anxiety-provoking situations. The thing is, asperger kids in general worry about things in advance, and may get 'tummy aches' etc but they wouldn't generally think to 'do naughty/dangerous stuff' so to speak to prevent the thing they are worried about from happening...

Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 12:31

That's interesting I had not really thought about it like that before. When does imagination and role play become an issue? What age do children develop empathy and how is it manifested. This is all new territory for me.

Ds2 isn't in character constantly. How much of Ds behaviour can be explained by being a creative thinking type rather than a outgoing type. Both me and Dp are not exactly shy but not particularly outgoing either but we manage.

He also has some sensory issues and doesn't like his hand being dirty. Ds1 has always been mostly sensory seeking.

Some days Ds2 is fine (except dressing and half the time tooth brushing which has really improved. If we go out especially if it just us he is well behaved. He has improved quite a lot over time.

We looked at reasons he might be being difficult/ misbehaving at home. We cleaned up his sleep routine, enrolled him in nursery I thought he might be bored and under stimulated and in need of other children. We also thought he might be jealous of DD1even though we tried hard not to let that happen. So we make sure we have one to one time with him. We looked at his diet and improved it where we could( already very diet aware from ds1). He does have a bit of a dodgy gut was going to introduce a probiotic. He does seem better but I still have this doubt.

I will talk to nursery staff and ask if their intervention has helped him play with other children.

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Staryeyed · 02/12/2012 12:34

Also forgot to add that he gets stuck if given an option. Seems to freeze if you ask him open or closed ended choices. That again has improved but is still there.

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Ineedalife · 02/12/2012 12:40

I just wanted to answer your question about which bits sound like hfa/aspergers.

The obssessive play, preferring to play with one thing and will go back to it even after being distracted. That is repetitive play.

Being controlling over items such as bowls or spoons. Is rigid behaviour. Would he refuse to eat if you didnt give him the required bowl??

Lacking empathy is usually linked to poor theory of mind, or an inability to understand what impact your actions have on other [amongst other things], dragging his sister or forcing her to playin his way is suggesting a difficulties with social interactions.

There was something from each of the Triad of impairments in your first post and I think that is probably what made us suggest hfa.

I think many children are dx'ed with an ASD before PDA and from what I have read most children with PDA also have ASD. Not all though so it is possible that your Ds does have PDA.

I think you will probably have trouble getting it diagnosed though.

Good luckSmile

ArthurPewty · 02/12/2012 15:19

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ArthurPewty · 02/12/2012 15:20

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HotheadPaisan · 02/12/2012 16:23

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Walter4 · 02/12/2012 18:05

I think it's like autism and part of the asd but with the added element which is PDA. Like autism plus!
My son takes his toys to bed too. Is also obsessed with acquiring "new stuff"!
Hates wet /dirty hands. Doesn't get games ,is dreadful with group activities as he needs to control everyone.

Staryeyed · 03/12/2012 15:20

Two things today. I pretended to hurt myself and he asked me what happened and kissed my 'hurt'.

He also showed concern at DD crying ( shut herself in the bedroom and couldn't get out). He asked "Why she crying mummy?"

Is that empathy,curiosity or learned behaviour?

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ArthurPewty · 03/12/2012 16:14

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ArthurPewty · 03/12/2012 16:14

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Walter4 · 03/12/2012 17:02

This is something I'm often wondering about. I am sure my son loves us, no doubt about that really. But I think the lack of empathy thing in our case is simply that he can't put himself in some else's shoes. He will often ask why someone s crying and sometimes put an arm around them, whiles looking to see who sees him! He might also laugh or just stare. If I hurt myself (or pretend to) he is often angry with me for it ,or might say " is there blood?" He becomes hysterical if he sees blood on himself. It's a difficult one to understand I feel.

ArthurPewty · 03/12/2012 17:06

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