Help with sleep please

[santaclaw5]

Ds didnt sleep until 2am this morning. Awake again 4am to 6am. He would sleep all day if i let him.

I have been trying to gradually wake him up early in the mornings, so he will hopefully sleep early in the evening. Professionals have told me to wake him early regardless of what sleep he has had every day.

I tried this yesterday, he didnt sleep 'until the birds were singing' but i woke him up at 8am, he was extremely tired, grumpy, irriated etc. I had to follow him around to make sure he didnt fall asleep. By about 5pm this had passed and he was hyper and still didnt sleep until 1am, waking again at 4am to 6am.

I tried to wake him at 8am and it was impossible. He was like a zombie, confused and disorientated.

He is under a lot of stress. Do i leave him to sleep and let him wake up naturally, do it gradually like i have been or continue with trying to wake him at 8am regardless of how much sleep he has had?

Goodness, that sounds awful. How old is he, santaclaw5? When you say he is under stress do you mean from lack of sleep or other issues? Nothing to add (no experience) but it sounds extreme and prob worth consulting with profs on it?

Handywoman xxx

That does sound awful, having trouble settling my dd3 for bed at the moment but its not nearly as bad as uve got it, the latest I've had is 11.30 at the moment so really feel for you. I know my dd gets worse when she is overtired, more hyper, big meldowns etc and its harder to get them off to sleep! He sounds like he is all out of any routine now+is struggling with that. I havnt done it yet but when I've been desperate with dd I've thought about taking her for a spin in the car because I know this will make her drop off when she's tired+then carry her indoors. Could you maybe try something like that just for a couple of nights to try get him asleep at a decent time so you can try break the cycle of being overtired? If that would work for your ds. Other suggestions people have given me regarding waking early is to make sure they are not cold/hungry etc so making sure dd gets plenty of supper and is warm enough during the nights as she always kicks blankets off+then wakes up. I've bought her fleecy onesies+bed socks now. Good luck hope you get it sorted soon.

Thanks. He is 8 years old. He is under stress from school and currently not attending, then not sleeping isnt helping so a vicious circle. School are asking that he attends for a short period each day. But that is whole other story.

I have consulted professionals, they say i need more routine, i say i know i do, but how do i that. Their advice wake him early, regardless of how much sleep he has. Easier said than done.

He refuses to use visual timetables too.

I was actually thinking about taking him out in the car last night, but i feared the cold air, cold car at that time would wake him up and make him more alert. Still ive got nothing to lose, so will give it a try tonight.

Ds is a no clothes, no socks sensory type of boy, he couldnt bear to wear socks to bed or a onsie unfortunately. It has to be pj's.

Part of his bedtime routine is a bedtime snack, so he eats something light and has a drink before we go up.

santa, I don't know your story, sorry, does your ds have a diagnosis? what professionals are involved atm? Has melatonin been considered?

sounds like there is work to be done to meet his needs on the school front, is that being tackled?

HW x

He has a dx of ASD, lots of sensory difficulties etc.

He has had Melatonin previously from CAMHS to 'reset' his body clock, he has been referred back, i have seen them 3 times, other professionals who dont have a clue about ASD or sleeping are telling them 'its lack of routine' so Melatonin hasnt been mentioned. Looks like i will have to ask them for it.

I am trying to deal with school, have applied for a statement, but they are very unhelpful and opposing me every step of the way.

Was just wondering if anyone had any ideas of things to try in the meantime.

There is a programme on (I think) BBC about sleep problems and disorganised sleeping patterns, insomnia is there too. Not specifically for children but it may give you some insight. Otherwise I am no help whatsoever!

Tonight at 9.0 oclock www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p010p74y

Thanks, i will watch it, if i can stay awake long enough!

santa you say that you've seen CAHMS about this and other professionals. What professionals??

We saw a neuroscientist who specialised in sleep issues. DS4 wore an Actiwatch for 14 days/24hours a day. They got a good picture of his activity. He had broken sleep - took a while to get off, would sleep for about 3 hours, then be awake for 3 hours before crashing and being woken up by me to go to school. They prescribed melatonin but the slow release one. It had to be a tablet as they couldn't get a liquid variety. Anyway it was a bust. We ended up going down the chiropractor route which helped sort out his sleep and now he sleeps through.

The other thing to consider is sleep apnoea and/or night time reflux. Coughing in his sleep regularly, coupled with too many chest infections are an indicator of night time reflux. Snoring at night, bad headaches and bad temper are also indicators of sleep apnoea. All of which can upset the body's natural rhythms.

No other professionals with regards to sleep, other than CAMHS, other professionals involved, but nothing to do with sleep.

I have a CAMHS appointment this week, i will ask about sleep again.

It seems to me that anxiety triggers sensory, he was itching and scratching and complaining of non existent labels making him itch.

Ok. I just think that it's also important to look at other reasons rather than anxiety or sensory. I have two children who both have sleep issues. One with ASD and the other has a craniofacial syndrome. The one with ASD was caused by vertebrae being out of alignment between his shoulders, which would mean that he could never get comfortable when asleep. The other has sleep apnoea due to obstruction. She wears a CPAP mask at night. She sleeps pretty well and is getting a better nights sleep plus no more headaches in the morning or falling asleep during class.

If you are under a paed then ask to be referred to a neuroscientist to investigate other factors causing his sleep to be poor. I am sure that you have probably done all the usual things like right ambient room temperature, bedding - soft pillow, mattress topper, cotton sheets. dark room, removing any stimulating toys, images etc. We did all of that with DS, no change and then I took him to the chiropractor and spent the best £90.

He is in bed with me, he had problems a while back and melatonin helped reset his body clock and he was in his own bed, own room and sleeping at a reasonable time (for him anyhow)

Then starting not sleeping, refusing school etc, etc.

Thanks i will bear chiropractor in mind.

There are several things you can do to influence sleep, which are as follows.

(1). Early morning light. - Exposure to early morning light activates a group of neurons called the 'suprachiasmatic nuclei,' which are involved in the timing of melatonin reuptake and release. Exposure to early morning light, (or a 'lightbox') helps these cells to 'get into the right rhythm.

(2). A dark room at bedtime. - Again this helps these cells to find the right rhythm.

(3) Artificially raising the core temperature of the body before bedtime and then moving to a cool bedroom so the core of the body cools. 'Core cooling' is a sleep signal to the brain, so you can trick it by artificially raising the core with a warm bath and then cooling.

(4). Food high in tryptophan for a last meal. Tryptophan converts to serotonin, which is used to synthesise melatonin. Trptophan is best absorbed alongside carbohydrates, so for instance, turkey and potatoes is perfect, (which is also why Christmas dinner makes you tired)

(5) Vestibular stimulation before bed. - This again produces serotonin.

(6) Certain types of music are also proven to influence brainwave patterns towards sleep. Gregorian chant, baroque music and white noise. These should be played at a low level.

Hope this helps.

sea salt baths help and zinc supplement.Hope you sort it out soon

Thanks guys, we already have a black out blind in the bedroom and i pull the blind up in the mornings when i get up.

Ds doesnt find baths relaxing, he finds baths distressing, doesnt like water, so not part of our bedtime routine.

Eating is a real problem for ds, very restricted, always has been, times of stress he reduces his diet to just dry toast. We are working on this also, but his diet has never included much to start with.

We have a sensory diet which i do at home, i could try increasing vestibular.

I havent tried music, ds usually jumps up to dance whenever music is played, but i could give this a try also.

Sea salts, ds doesnt like baths and doesnt have them at bedtime. Will try zinc.

Thanks again, willing to give anything a go.

CAMHS are going to 'get back to me' about Melatonin also.