What do I do?

[Lougle]

Yesterday we went to church and she went to 'the wave'. I went along because DD1 wanted to try it. The children were asked to draw an ark with animals. DD2 refused and said she only wanted to draw her bunny. I explained that an ark was a boat with animals, so she could draw the boat and draw a bunny on it. She would only draw the bunny if she could use the right colours, then got upset because she 'couldn't get to the box of pens'. She could, it just meant that she had to walk past other children to get to them. The children were then asked to write a sentence. She wouldn't. Said she was too tired, and started crying quietly. They were then asked to draw a rainbow. She wouldn't. When it was time to play a game afterwards, she sat on her chair with her knees up by her chest, sucking her hand and picking her finger, wouldn't join in.

Today, yet another day of DD2 not wanting to go to school. Claiming her head aches and feels fizzy, and her tummy hurts. We were almost late for school because she was so slow at getting ready. When we got there, she wouldn't go in to the cloakroom. Parents aren't allowed in the cloakroom. I finally got her in there, but then she wouldn't go into the classroom. No big demonstrations, just a quiet refusal to move. Eventually, her teacher cottoned on that I was still stood outside the classroom, so came and got her.

I had thought that perhaps a school of 160 children in YrR-Yr2 was too much for her, so we were considering seeing if the local primary school which has 110 between YrR and Yr6 could take her, but they're full with a waiting list of 8 - huge in this area, movement is low. The other primary with similar sizing isn't full, but it's more tricky for reasons I can't go into.

I feel like she's disappearing. My lovely little girl is now a ball of anxiety.

I know for a while you have been wondering if there isn't something going on with your dd.
Also if she hasn't been able to develop some coping mechanisms that means that it isn't that obvious that she is (might be) finding things difficult.

Is it possible that, whilst she was down the weather, her barriers have come down and she actually told you what she is finding hard? From that list, she seems to be really struggling with change asso moving from nursery to YR. It really makes me things she is very reluctant to embrace changes.

Perhaps, as zzz said, emphasize the good things that have changed ( there are some balls to play with even though there are no trikes now), how well she is doing etc...

Lougle- how old is dd & does she have a dx of anything?
It seems to me, that she is anxious & overwhelmed by school just now-the noise, the number of children, the difference in routine, the difference in expectations this year. Just the fact, that she cannot be by herself all day, may be exhausting her. It is sensory overload.
My dd,(we are in Scotland), could have started P1 when she was 4.5yrs. But, she was very quiet at Nursery, would hardly speak to anyone, but still liked going. We decided, along with her Nursery teachers that she would benefit from another year at Nursery, and start school the following year. It made such a difference to her. She started to relax, & join in at News Time etc. I'm sure this made the transition to school much easier.
My dd has 2 siblings with ASD, & I'm pretty sure she is also on the Spectrum, lots of Sensory issues too, though we havent gone down the dx route.
She is nearly 7yrs, & still finds parties difficult-even though she knows all the dc-will sit on my knee. She also won't go on swings etc if other dc are on them, & gets upset if someone asks to play with her!
Like your dd, mine is also academically bright, & these dc are easily overlooked at school. If she continues to be anxious, perhaps HE would work for the next year-it doesn't have to be for ever, & her siblings will except the situation, even if they moan about it!

DD2 is 5.3. August born, due in the September but born 1 month early - 'should' be in YrR now, but is in Yr1 because she was born early.

I do try and adopt a positive attitude about school. I never put words in her mouth, only ever say 'tell me about that...' if she expresses worry. She doesn't express her feelings about things in general. Only while she was ill - it was like opening a window to her mind.

I think the bottom line is that right now, she's struggling emotionally, but not enough for school to find it a problem. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps in another term or so, she'll have found her feet. The problem with that, of course, is that then she'll only have 12 weeks or so of 'settled' learning before moving on again to Yr 2.

Lougles, have you taken these concerns anywhere other than school (I am thinking particularly about the language issues here)? I wonder if you get a ball rolling (am thinking SLT referral), it might help you?

Also my other thought is that your dd2 has been off school, even a short absence can have a big impact, and a child with subtle social/ not so subtle imo language difficulties may really struggle to re-integrate with the environment and peers? The demands are quite big. Perhaps give things longer and see if they settle down a little, in part so you can be sure that the tummy pain is no longer to do with the bug she is getting over.

Meantimes (((hugs)))

Handywoman xxxxxxx

Thank you for the hugs

I spoke to the GP on the telephone and he said that without school support, a referral to Paeds is very unlikely.

Re. the language issues, I don't know why school don't see it. Today, I led Jasmine into my room by her hand. She resisted, but I continued to lead her. Later she accused me of 'shoving' her. I told her I hadn't shoved her at all, and she said "Yes you did! Yes you did! It wasn't walking, it wasn't running and it wasn't running, so it was shoving."

I took her in 30 minutes late today. It had taken 2 hours to get her dressed for school.

Lougles I totally empathise with your bewilderment. I think in part you are up against the August-born label. Also that while language skills are crucial to accessing the curriculum, they are not in the curriculum except for general 'speaking and listening' skills, or whatever the Foundation Stage equivalent is.

In our case (if you recall your description of your dd2's language is uncannily like my dd aged 4) even NHS SaLT were quite unable, in their assessments, to identify dd2's severe language difficulties (they assessed her as 'normal') so teachers are really quite unlikely to see it either. How many people on here have posted: "Help, my dc's teacher thinks my dc has a language delay/language disorder"? I have not seen it since being on here. Dd's nursery teachers were similarly non-plussed even when the SaLT went in weekly to do therapy! To our great fortune, however, her YR teacher has worked with SEN kids for a long time and totally 'got' it.

I really think if you engage a good SaLT to identify the language issues, this will, in turn, open doors to other assessments. Is private SaLT an option for you? I wish I could send my SaLT to you, wherever you are, she has been our absolute best ally over the years and a source of continual expertise, support and understanding.

more (((hugs)))

HW x

Lougle, your GP is wrong. You do not need school support for a referral to Paeds. You can ask for him to refer dd to Paeds. He does not need to agree with you re seeing a difficulty with dd-that is the Paeds speciality. If everyone on this Board waited for school support for Referrals to other Profs, by the time it was forthcoming, our dc would have left school!
If you are concerned for dd, ask for a referral, & if your GP won't, write to the Head of your Primary Care Trust.

The GP says that they use a panel to evaluate referral requests and if school is not on board, panel will reject.

DD1 was on the list for panel consideration, but then she started falling over and got sent to hospital as an emergency, so she didn't go through panel in the end.

DH and I argued today. He thinks she needs to somehow be shown that get anxiety is unnecessary and then she'll be fine. I'm saying how do you know know her anxiety is unnecessary? We need to work out why she's anxious and do something about it.

I spoke to one GP on the phone and another in person. I'll go back.

I think SALT will be the same gateway...but might phone the HV and see if they can refer.

DD2 has come home and told me that she was still crying when she went to class, so her teacher sat outside with her. She said she thinks her teacher said 'you've been very long with mummy.' So it seemsthe teacher thinks she's just missing me.

Lougles referral to Paeds works the same here, ie the panel at CDC decides whether to accept or reject the referral. In our case the referral was made by HV specifically on the advice of private SaLT. The HV had to make the case and told the nursery to write a letter saying there were social communication issues asked the nursery for input.

I am like zzzzzzzzz (ie brain like sieve) do you have two other children with diagnoses? If so I would have thought CDC's threshold for accepting referral would be lower for a child whose sibling(s) have a diagnosis?

Your HV (or school nurse?) may be able to come up with some questionnaires for school to fill in, that might tease out the issues and support a referral?

HW x

I have 1 DD who is 7 next week, with a complex SN diagnosis (she has MLD, with MRI brain changes, epilepsy - although no longer symptomatic or treated).

DD3 doesn't have any diagnosis except 'freakishly able child'

Today she said that school was 'excellent' because she'd practiced the Christmas play. She went on to say 'I ran around at playtime and my hands got frrrreeezing and turned to blocks of ice.' Then she turned to me and said 'Mum, my hands didn't really turn to blocks of ice, that was a joke, they were just cold.'

I took her to her cousin's birthday party this afternoon. There were around 10 children there. All the children were playing together, then I realised that I couldn't see DD2. She'd gone into the corner of the room, away from the other children, playing on her own. She wouldn't sit down without me, and wouldn't/couldn't even ask her auntie for a drink - she wanted/needed me to do it. I even had to make her ask her Grandad (who she sees 4/5 times per week) to pass some pineapple/cheese on a stick, rather than just pointing to it so that I did it.

At today's party she said 'there's too much talking, too much laughing, too much giggling and too much noise.'

Oh and then she had diarrhoea, so I had to take the children home. That means she can't go to school, again.

Hi, reading with interest as we are thinking moving DS from a small primary (50 children in 3 mixed year groups F/Y1. Y2/Y3, Y4/Y5/Y6), to a larger one (130) that does not have mixed year groups.
The transition to new classes is not a worry at the moment, the lack of structure in the Foundation/Y1 class is just not cutting it for DS.

From nursery he needed the structure you might expect from Y2 really - clear daily timetable, desk to sit at and allocated place to sit, clear expectations and challenging work to keep him occupied (academincally very capable), plus routine, routine, routine.

The mixed foundation and Y1 means basically they kids do foundation year twice, and the freeplay/low structure aproach for foundation prevails for 2 years. Its not working at all for DS

Sadly we are in the same position that the other schools that are set up differently are full, so we have to make do. I have a meeting on Monday to revisit what can be done to better support DS...how the required structure can be delivered, and keep him included, while deflecting the 'we cant get funding' whining which is soooooooooooooo inapproriate and unprofessional.

So, really just to point out, smaller wont necessarily be able to meet the needs....its very dependant on how the school is set up, what experience they have with the kind of special needs requirements your child has etc.

As they say, size isn't everything...

Your gp is wrong
He can refer to a comm paed.
You could also request an assessment through school (EP report)

Interesting re. the school thing. I think the reason DD2 was able to cope in YrR is that she was able to self-select activities that reflected her strength. Her teacher said she was 'so easy to assess' because she would teach about 'repeating patterns' then DD2 would go away, then return with some blocks in repeating patterns and say 'look, I did a repeating pattern.' Of course, what I see is rigidity...like following a recipe.

I can't request an assessment through school because school don't/won't see any of the issues. They think she is 'quirky' and 'individual'.