Is pointing a good indicator that DC2 isn't on the spectrum?

[sallyneedssleep]

DS2 is at higher risk due to DS1. He's very different from his brother but strangely has had crap eye contact especially up close when ds1's has always been very good. Anyway he's 11mths and has started pointing this week. He will point at toys he wants and also at the dog and other dogs when out for a walk in his buggy. He sometimes makes a noise with the pointing. However, he doesn't look back to check I'm looking.
Now I've read lots about on here and elsewhere. But it mainly just talks about index finger pointing though some stuff says they need to look back to be sure it's joint attention. DS1 did point but very very late and certainly not with clear extended index finger like ds2 is doing. He would have failed the CHAT test.

So, I guess I'm asking if this is a clear sign he's not on the spectrum or whether it really doesn't mean much in isolation. Though he also shares crackers and toast with us. Is that joint attention? I would just like to know if I'm in the clear with this one?

Hmm I'm not sure on this one. Dd1 has ADHD and some AS traits she pointed and still does however we've only just noticed that she cannot follow a point and pead said she has AS markers but I was happy to leave her dx at ADHD as she was coping fine. Dd2 is the same she points but has serious sensory and social issues and we are awaiting ados. However they say in our case girls are notoriously tricky cases anyway particularly if they are hfa

Well, I'm not sure if pointing alone is a very reliable indicator either way (unless it is completely absent and there are other signs iyswim). Ds (ASD) pointed, but it was late, at 14 months. When he did, I remember breathing a huge sigh of relief that he didn't have autism then

Dd (nt) pointed much earlier, around the same age as your ds2. And like your ds2, it was a different kind of point, an unmistakable, unequivocal, emphatic index-finger point.

But as well as the really subtle things you only really see with hindsight (ie the kind of quality of interaction), there were other more tangible differences at that age. Eg ds at the age of 1yo would have no idea what to do if I rolled a ball to him - would just not respond and look a bit blank. I tried it with dd when she was about 9 or 10 months and she rolled it straight back to me and knew it was a game. Also she responded to her name being called from a very young age, every. single. time. Ds responded maybe once in every three times, and often after being repeatedly called.

It is stressful watching the subsequent ones like a hawk, but it sounds at this stage that there are no obvious reasons to worry right now, imho

DS has severe autism but has always been able to point items of interest (to him) and also he's always been able to follow a point.
The multi team that DX him said he's unusual in that respect
So your sons pointing is probably a positive :)

perception sorry yes you're right, 14 months is within normal range. I just meant it was at the latter end of the scale (actually he was prob more like 15 or even 16 months, thinking about it now). I think at the time I read about pointing/autism link when looking into mmr, and read that pointing should be around 12 months, which he wasn't doing, so have subsequently computed when he did start as 'late'. Sorry to confuse things OP.

Thanks for quick responses. Oh well, guess I need to wait it out. Hopefully some speech will emerge and he will start bringing toys to me and stuff.
Yes, bialy, it's very stressful and ruins your enjoyment of their babyhood to a certain extent. I will try the ball thing.
Is the sharing of toast when I ask if mummy can have some of his yummy toast a good sign? He is very different...but aren't they all. Not sure I've met two ASD kids the same either.

Speaking of pointing with little finger my dd1 does that she's 8 now its funny how her oddities have taken years to manifest themselves really and its only really on having dd2 assessed for possible asd that we've noticed things in dd1.

Sally look for things like if you blow bubbles and he looks at the bubbles then looks back to you to make sure you've seen them that's joint attention. Or if he sees something funny/scary he looks at it then checks back to you to see your reaction

Thanks chundle. He does look at me when we do bubbles. And when dh is doing chasing play with him he will stop crawling and look at him and make little squeals of anticipation waiting for dh to catch him.
I do hope these are all good signs.
He was crawling much earlier than his brother and is almost walking but not sure if gross motor skills are relevant. We were told he has 4x higher risk.
I keep thinking he's so different from ds1 but then I read in the mn archives about a poster who was surprised her ds2was also ASD as he was so different from her ds1. Plus theres the close up eye contact issue.

FWIW dd was happy to offer and share from the time she could understand. I don't think ds would have done so until he was probably about 3yo or older.

Thanks bialy. That's good to know! He's been offering and sharing since about 8.5mths. Not sure DS1 would do it now at 7yrs!

I have pictures of ds pointing at about 18 months. Hes pointing for himself though ... As in ' that has drawn my attention' not as in ' do you see that? What do you think of it?' it wasn't a shared attention thing.
I think the looking at you (even to just confirm or acknowledge) is really important.
Funnily enough... He seemed to stop pointing for years ( he's now 15) but he started again a few years back. He does point out for other people now and he will occasionally check back using words ( not a confirming glance) ... But it's the most awkward ,oddest ,uncomfortable looking point I have ever seen! Sort of fast and twisted. The only person I have seen do something similar is Andrew Lloyd Webber.

I was utterly convinced that ds1 (ASD) was NT until 12 months or so, but when we had ds2 I realised in retrospect how many signs I'd missed. DS2 pointed from 9 months, specifically to show me things, but he was also doing so much else that ds1 hadn't been. For example I hadn't realised it wasn't usual to still be mouthing every toy/ object at nearly a year, or that it wasn't usual to not want to imitate what we and his older sister were doing. Or not to react when someone had an angry or upset facial expression. Or not to be trying to verbally communicate (whether by words or approximations of words). Or not to understand a single word that was said to him.

So it was a whole package of things that started to convince me that ds2 was NT. But the day he pointed was a very good one, as ds1 has never pointed.

DS1 (AS) pointed at the normal time, but didn't check if anyone looked at what he pointed at, had been taught to check by age 9.
DS2 (ASD) pointed very late (over 2) and still doesn't check if anyone looks at what he pointed at.
DS3 (NT) pointed at normal time and naturally checked if we were looking, I was amazed that children can do that naturally .

Thanks everyone! He isn't looking back but I read something last night that seemed to say that that follows a month or so after the pointing starts so I'll need to keep an eye out for it.
I also read an article which suggested that although some ASD children do point, it is rarely before 1yr and rarely with a clear extended index finger so that sounds promising.

Ohh, on the school run he pointed to a dog, looked at me and continued to point. But I was in front of him sorting out his buggy not behind him. The waiting and uncertainty is awful. Oh to have that ignorance of all things ASD related.

DS1 (NT) pointed at normal time and checked to see if people were looking.
DD (NT) pointed at normal time and checked to see if people were looking.
DS2 (ASD) didn't point until almost 4yo and even then it wasn't really pointing, just a swing of the arm and staring at object (or leaping at it). He didn't really stop to see if anyone was looking until well after that.
DS3 (NT) is 3yo, has been pointing quite awhile, stops to see if we're looking, then screams bloody murder if we're not.

Our HV made a big issue about DS2 not pointing (when he was 3yo), but just went on and on about how it was a form of communication and a stage they should go through earlier than where he was at. She didn't, however, do anything but rant about it a bit, then said "oh well, he seems to be fine" and left. When we mentioned it to the GP, they brushed it off and said it was nothing. It's a real shame the HV wasn't more clear to us about it and didn't follow up at all, as perhaps he could have gotten seen by the paed much sooner.