Have decided to push for sn school for dd2 next year (key stage 2), where do i start?

[Marne]

Following on from my other thread, i have decided to leave dd2 where she is this year but push for sn school next september.

Spoke to her TA this morning and she said 'dd2 is doing really well and suprisingly keeping up with the work load in year 2 although she needs encouragement, she's producing realy good work so far'. I know at the moment no one will back me on moving her to a sn school as accademicly she is working at average level or above. I still feel that in the long run MS is not where she belongs.

Where do i start in getting her into sn school next september? how am i going to get anyone to listen to me?

Dd2 is ment to have full time 1:1 although her statement is a bit sketchy, school promised me she would have her own TA at all times but i dont think this is happening, yesterday she came home with her clothes inside out and quite often she comes out of school on her own, no one realy tells me how she's getting on (unless i bump in to her TA in the morning and ask her), her new teacher has not even introduced herself to me and i havn't got a clue what she does each day. I think dd2 is starting to notice that she is different even though the school do their best to include her in everything, she has friends and is popular, i just think next year things will get harder, she's already refusing to do work and gets upset when she doesn't understand the work (although once she understands it she is capable of doing it).

How do i strat the ball rolling?

Do i stand a chance?

Watching with interest, me too. Although school will back me, I know this after a chat with the teacher yesterday about how aggressive dd is becoming.

I had a similar thread a while ago and after advice ending up visiting the local SS, this was really helpful in terms of finding out more. In fact even a chat with the head over the phone told me lots and opened my eyes to why ss would probably be something I suggested rather than anyone else iyswim.

We were refused a place 2 years ago as they felt because she was accademicly able and apparently she needed to be around verbal children (to improve her speach) that ms was the best place for her.

Dd2 is not aggresive but has started to shout 'no!' when she doesn't want to do work so she does not disrupt the class enough for the school to want rid of her (so i cant see them backing me).

We know the dep head at the sn school, he has met dd2 (quite a while ago) and i think he would back us, she has outreach from the sn school but they have only seen her once this year and felt she was doing ok.

We have the same, it is thought that DD needs to hear good speech modelled but tbh its hard to know because she's progressed but not massively so and her behaviour has detiriorated so much.

The behaviour thing has upset me but I can actually see that in a way it is getting dd more help because while she wasn't causing trouble it would be easy to think she's alright so I can see how that would be hard.

Start by asking for updated assessmets from any professionals who have assessed her in the past and ask for an early review of the statement. get parts 2 and 3 realy tight so the need for a special school is clearly shown- you may have to to tribunal and appeal parts 2,3 and 4.

I think if the child is disrupting the class then the ms school will probably back the choice to move the child to a sn school. In a way i wish dd2 was more disruptive, trouble is she's so layed back that she would easily fade away in the background (although now she's more verbal she's starting to refuse to do things which could get harder). Dd2 has improved a lot but now she's getting older its more obvious to her and others that she is different. I dont want her to feel like she's different then everyone else, in a sn school there would be other children like her and people who will understand her more.

Wassup, what would i need on the statement to indicate she needs a sn school? she already has SALT, OT and Physio on there (which isn't being met) as well as 30hrs TA.

Pead wants to discharge her, we are not seeing pead again until 2013 (Aug), she hasn't seen OT for a few months so theres not many people involved with her at the moment (seems they have done all they can and are now backing off).

Yes totally agree. My DD is feeling it too and the gap is widening. I think she is really showing her distress now and that means its a risk to others too now if she stays.

When I rang the SS they asked was DD performing below P level so I keep meaning to ask school this.

Early review ask why this ths and this is not in place ask everyone to come paed, ot everyone....ask why it is not happening? Maybe a CAF would be useful to ensure that people attend?

There is two main reasons why a child moves to a more specialist setting: lack of progress or behaviour.

So in what areas is she not making reasonable progress? And how can you prove that? May be about getting something very measureable on IEP now that you know the m/s school will not be able to deliver progress on - so not academic but perhaps more on social, life skills, motor etc - and then you will be able to point to that as inadequate progress

In terms of behaviour she would probably need to be aggressive rather than merely disruptive.

You stand a chance but you may need to be sneaky to start with eg slanting the IEP towards the stuff they cannot deliver. Asking to go and observe a session to see how she is getting on. And making sure you have good baseline information on skills before you let on you are thinking of moving her. It might even be a case of getting some independent assessments now for comparison by the time you got to any tribunal so even if the school fudge their data to show progress you will have your own.

DD's statement is quite woolly, but I was fine with that (despite the normal MN SN warnings) because I knew the intentions of the Statementing Officer was that she would go to SS, and that the SS in the area was fantastic, and that the Statementing Officer controlled the list for the SS, so DD was guaranteed a place there.

However, what made SS inevitable were lines such as:

"DD will have support in either small groups, individually..blah blah, by people who are experienced and skilled in dealing with children such as DD1."

The only way to be sure of that, is SS.

"DD will need SALT to be delivered throughout the whole school curriculum and throughout the whole school day."

If she'd been at MS, she would have been withdrawn from class for SALT. At SS, they use 'total communication' and the SALT programmes are deployed in every area.

Without getting it out and poring over it, all I can say is that by the end of it I was thinking 'how on earth are they going to ensure that at x school'????

Then it dawned on me that the only place that could provide everything was Special School. Until that point, I'd been told by every professional that she'd be going MS.

When I phoned the Statementing Officer, I said 'are you suggesting Special School' and she said 'absolutely'. I asked how sure she was, and she said 'I've been doing this 20 years, and I've never been so sure in my life.' By that point I was gibbering, and said 'but isn't it hard to get a place, what are the lists like?' and I could feel her grin down the phone line as she said 'I control the list'.

"In terms of behaviour she would probably need to be aggressive rather than merely disruptive."

Mmmm...I'm not so sure about that. For DD1, she had the ability to be aggressive, but was inhibited enough that she'd have to be pused to be aggressive. Mostly, she was incredibly disruptive.

Her attention skills were poor enough that circle time, etc., was incredibly hard. She drifted off, too, so she wasn't taking in information.

DD1's local infant school was open plan. I made a big thing about this in my parent's advice, and made it clear that if she went to MS, they would have to give her 1:1, and that they'd spend half the day trying to keep her in the classroom, and the other half taking her out for different interventions.

As someone said before, what is inclusion if it is achieved by excluding a child?

At DD1's special school, she is a valued pupil, who is trusted to take the register back to the office, etc. They can do this, because the risk is minimal. The school is secure, they have radio link if necessary, they have CCTV. What can she do? Where can she go?

im going through this at teh moment. my sons ms school have said they cannot meet his needs - lea response post emergency review was to up his hours to 32.5 - hes only attending school part time cos he cant cope with it so that was pretty pointless - we are trying to get him into a free school for aspergers kids - lea fighting it even though place only 8.5k a year - fulltime support much more. my lea arguing that the statement is a mainstream statement so we are having to go to tribinal - appealing parts 2 3 and 4. the lea wont amend the statement at all even though our private reports state he needs a special school, head agrees etc etc - i have all of the evidence but the lea fighting me every single step of the way. they have no finally sent autism outreach in - only taken 2 years - should have been last week but then she turned up yesterday instead - she didnt do any work with him she just observed him and that was that! it can be a battle but i agree - you need the statement as tight as possible and also teh school to be onside to help you but it is not easy and is very stressfull

"In terms of behaviour she would probably need to be aggressive rather than merely disruptive."

I sort of meant this in the context that this is when LAs and schools will recognise a move is needed. Thats what we were told about DS - because he was placid and not causing a problem we were told we would not be able to get him into SS without first proving he had failed to make appropriate progress in mainstream whereas if he had been aggressive it would have been much more straightforward. Its a lot easier if school are moaning about lots of incidents.

Marne, the first thing the LA asked me was "what did I believe ds2 would get from attending a sn school" they wanted specifics that could not be easily provided in ms.
Why do you want her to go to sn school?
make sure you have good solid reasons ready

Agree with agnes, ds2 only qualifies for sn school as he is years behind academically. He is not disruptive or aggresive at all.

Sounds like we wont stand a chance then , she's not failing academicaly, she's not aggresive or disruptive (as such), she's just a little girl who is so layed back, not a bad bone in her body, she's bright, she's talented but she is different.

The reasons why she would be better in ss?

She would get more SALT, at the moment she gets hardly any and now her speach is coming along she needs to learn how to form words properly, her speach is not always clear and her words get muddled.

She would have access to more OT type activities that would improve her low muscle tone and hypermobility, the sn school does things like horse riding etc..

She would not feel as singled out as she would be around other children like her (that need help with things and that struggle with sensory issues).

She would learn more life skills which are as important (if not more) than being able to read, write and do maths, i want her to be able to go to a shop, be able to cook (although she does get lessons in this at home).

She would be in a small class with children working at the same ability as her with staff/a teacher with lots of expereance in ASD.

Also it would be a lot less stressful for me, i wouldn't have to go into school every other day, i wouldn't have to worry as much about her not getting the correct support.

On the other hand, reasons she should go to ms?

Because a small part of me thinks she should learn to cope in the nt world and others should just except her for who she is.

I want her to sit GCSE'S and even A levels when she's older.

I want her to have all the opertunities her sister will have.

If its not broken don't mend it, so far this year she is happy, at the moment she is oblivious to the fact she is different, she has friends (children who like to look after her).

She has shown huge improvements sinse being at this school.

So, what do i do? continue with ms and then risk not being able to get a place in sn school when she reaches 11? (theres no saying she will need a sn high school but if she does it will be extra tricky if she has spent 7 years in ms already).

I am confussed

All those are valid reasons - and LA may agree its reasonable for her to go - often a SS place is as cheaper than a lot of 1:1 in mainstream. I would not assume there is no chance - LA SS are often only £15k which is less than a FT 1:1.

But if LA don't agree then you just have to turn your reasons into an argument that she is not making appropriate progress with language / gap with peers is widening so needs more SALT; same with motor skills; same with life skills. You set the IEP up with targets for language, motor skills, life skills - then sit back and let m/stream not achieve them. Then say in SS more time would have been able to be devoted to x, y and z.

Even if she is making progress with language etc you can still argue its not appropriate level of progress for her, especially as she's so clever

What about a dual placement?

I'm not sure if she would cope with a duel placement, she loves routine, struggle with change .

I cant see that i will ever get anyone elses backing to move her, her TA is lovely but hasn't got a clue really, for example: sports day was a nightmare, dd2 was put into races she can not physicly do, dd2 got very upset, was crying and then TA comes over to me after and says 'dd2 did very well and she really enjoyed it' (like hell she did, poor child was a mess for days after), all TA keeps telling me is 'dd2's doing really well' in all the reviews everyone says 'she's making good progress, blah..blahh, blahhh'. No one seems to comment on the fact she is years behind with her speach and the fact she spends half the day covering her ears and face, they tell me how well she's doing going to church once a week but how can curling up in a ball and covering your ears be 'doing good' ?

It feels like i'm the only one that see's her problems, see's when she's struggling and the only one who understands her. She doesn't hit, rarely shouts but will shut down (but of course that does not cause a problem for the staff as they just let her get on with it).

sounds like you could do with "expert" observations being carried out in school.
I would recommend a specialist sensory/asd OT and a clinical psych.

They can spell out to the school & formally report how these behaviours & body language are ways that your dd isn't copying & is displaying distress & anxiety.
Sometimes schools need it spelling out to them, for some reason they expect all kids with ASD to shout & scream then if they are not then they must be coping. This is where there is a huge gap in ASD understanding & training within MS schools.
Start building your evidence to support the reasons why SN school would be better & why MS are not able to meet her needs

But its not mainstream school you have to convince its the LA. And they may be perfectly happy to move her if the cost is similar / less. Does she see an EP? Is the EP someone you could talk to and who might back you? I know its rare but we have a great EP who has always backed us on specialist rather than mainstream against his bosses. LAs are supposed to follow parental preference provided that it is not an inefficient use of resources.

Trouble is as soon as any one goes in to observe they pull there finger out (get the TA to stay for the whole day and work with just dd2), they drag out the gym ball and the wobble cushion and make out they are doing everything on the statement. OT has been great and does have a go out them if she feels her needs are not being met, the school have often said 'its just not possable to meet everything in her statement as it meens taking her away from other things she's doing' (more like it means that they cant use her TA to do other things).

Today she came home with a very wet lunch bag (i know this happens to most children but she used to have someone watching her at lunch times), she had put a open carton of drink in her lunch bag so obviously no one was keeping an eye, yesterday she came home with all her clothes inside out, so where was her TA? she's ment to have help getting dressed.