Secondary Application for an unstatemented ASD child - what to ask?

[swanthingafteranother]

My ds2 is applying for secondary this term. His older brother is already at a secondary which we would quite like for ds2. Academically it has been quite challenging for ds1, and ds2 is v interested in all those subjects that I know the school teaches v well. However we don't know what they offer for a HFA/Asperger's child. There are two other schools in area which are better known for their SEN provision, which we will also be investigating.
Is it worth ringing up the SEN depts of all the schools concerned directly or should I wait to enquire on the Open Days? The thing is, I've been round all the schools already, listened to the inspirational talks when appying for ds1, and I just want to know now about the SEN provision, and not much else!!!!!

Ds2 is not going to get a statement by time we apply, although I haven't ruled out applying for one when he is actually at Secondary.

The real problem is that Ds2 is very clever, more "intellectual" than his older brother but rubbish at writing (3a level in his year 5 assessment), and I don't quite see how he is going to get all the homework done that his brother struggled with...the brother who didn't even have writing difficulties..Is this the sort of question that schools will answer or will they just think I'm mad? The secondary school is smaller and closer than the one earmarked as more appropriate by our primary for those with special needs (both mainstream) and the third is v difficult to get into and also extremely demanding academically from what I hear anecdotely...

How do you articulate to a school that you are worried that your child won't cope with the homework!!!!!

I forgot to mention that ds2 has a twin sister, who is also obviously applying for a secondary and she insists on going to a separate school to him, so that is another twist, and more work finding the right school for her too...She is NT.

I don't really have any advice, sorry, but can completely understand where you are coming from. My DD is on her 3rd day at secondary and is already overwhelmed with the very simple homework tasks she's been given - I try to encourage her but won't get too involved, like I did at primary. I would like the school to notice she has these problems - even though i've already told them.

She's not organised her own school bag or anything for school, by herself yet but i'm going to step back and let the school provide what they told me they would. I've just applied for Statutory Assessment too.

I would contact the school(s) and ask for an appointment to speak to someone from the SEN department.

One thing to be wary of is if they try to fob you off with a "We'll see how he gets on and then take it from there."

Ask if your ds would be able to use a laptop in school to type his class work. If they say that other children do this, ask about how those laptops are provided. They're unlikely to want your ds to bring one from home because of insurance issues and potential theft, but as he is unstatemented they may not have funding to provide one.

Another potential issue is making sure your ds would have enough time to copy the homework details from the board. It's worth asking what provision there is for this.

If the writing difficulty is a physical one (eg my ds has poor fine motor skills) then it might help to get him started with learning how to touch type. The one on the BBC website is a free and popular one. Another option is voice recognition software that would let him dictate his homework directly on to the computer.

My ds is unstatemented and has just started Yr8.

Does your boy have funding? And a formal dx
Ds ( 15 hfa/aspergers with dyspraxia ) has no statement but has funding at level 2c ( 15 hours)
Secondary school has been excellent ... I couldn't have hoped for better ( primary was a horrible horrible experience.)
I would make an appointment with the senco to discuss your boy. Do it now. It then gives them a chance to say what they can do for your boy ( even things like transition days etc)
When we looked at schools, there was a clear winner in our case. At the time, it was actually the worst performing school in our town ... But not now... So maybe visit other sen departments too.
Ds was terrible with homework and organisation and writing. He has a lot of support in these areas.
Hope you find the right place for your boy.

How has your ds managed Copper? Has it been a problem going unstatemented? Has it affected the school's perception of his abilities that he is not able to get the work down on paper so easily?
I find people say blithely that I should get ds a statement, but the work involved so far (I have started on process) the likelhood of refusal, and the actual help that would be specified (being so nebulous, a sort of hovering nurturing person in the social ether) seems to me better spent actually parenting him atm So far I'm spending a lot of time helping him with his schoolwork, and I don't see how this level of help can continue into secondary if the demands on him are as they appear to have been with ds1...

troutpout but I am having difficulty getting my head round why the schools would actually want to help ds2 when he doesn't have a statement...I mean he is just going to be work/trouble for them isn't he?? Aren't they going to want to put me off when I say he is going to find the homework too hard? Surely they all want pupils that will make their results better? One of the schools looks after their HFA pupils because academic results are so good with those children...So what will they make of a clever child that doesn't write well?

V interesting about funding. Will make appt straightaway. And try the touchtyping, I know I should...
Yes, ds has formal diagnosis and is on SAplus atm, but not actually having any specific help with anything except abit of extra handwriting...but then primary school work is not v demanding where he is. No-one has actually said it is bad he is only level 3A...that is up to me to deduce...and obviously comparisons with sister, and people in year below help me deduce this.

All secondary schools will have some with HFA / AS / LD etc.
They get delegated funds for SEN
They should not think it odd at all that you want to come and see / talk about what support there is.
For eg some will pool the SEN money to run a learning unit where they pull kids out for extra help etc which are usually not well publicised in glossy brochures etc
And anyway you are going to have to talk to them eventually so you may as well bite the bullet early.
Like Trout says you can actually tell a lot from whats on offer and how willing they are to talk about SEN.

The homework side of things took a bit of getting used to at first. They started Yr7 with lots of homework, including big projects to be completed over 6 weeks. At one point I resorted to being ds' scribe and typing word-for-word what he said.

I half-expected to have keep this up all year but ds gradually got better at it and eventually managed to do it independently. I think we were all very shocked by that. :o

It also helped that his school has a system of handing out slips of paper at the beginning of the lesson, with information about what they will be doing. They then glue them in to their books. At primary they were expected to copy from the board. They also do a lot of work on worksheets, which again reduces the amount of writing needed.

I found that his ASD seems to have been something of an advantage for him, which took me completely by surprise. At parents' evening it was mentioned several times that his teachers loved having him in the class because he always seemed to think of an angle to discussions/questions that no-one else had thought of. They nearly all commented too on how he is one of the few students in his class who refuses to follow/copy the troublemakers.

The CATs they had at the beginning of the year also helped. Ds apparently got very good scores, so his teachers already knew that he was capable of doing very well. He made a lot of progress in Yr7, and even reached one of his end-of-Yr9 targets.

He's reached the point where he's going to need to start using a laptop in class, but so far it's been very positive.

One thing I would say is to look out for a school with a good reputation/system for pastoral care. I really think that this has helped my ds far more than the SEN department. It makes such a huge difference when you know that not only can you contact the school about specific issues, but also that they focus on the child's emotional wellbeing at least as much as the academic side.

I know what you mean about applying for statements. It's very difficult if you have a child who has no behavioural issues at school and who academically is achieving within typical levels.

Blimey swan! :-( Because it is their job As educators it is their job
How about them valuing him for what he can do and achieve? How about this bright boy of yours being the best he can be ?( with the right support)

The minute you sell him short... Then so will everyone else

I'm sorry to be blunt... But I have been where you are ...( I made myself sick with worry about secondary school. I have experience of secondary school ( work) so knew what a challenge it would be for him.

Fight his corner ... Find him the School which will do the most for him.
Approach primary school senco about funding? Do it now so its in place for secondary.Ds was on SA until the end of yr5 and then he got funding put in place. This has made the biggest difference ever.
Ask secondary schools what they can do for your boy. Don't be swayed by a-c percentages.
Where are you based?
I'm not going to lie... Everything is still hard work with ds and I am essentially his TA at home. Homework is still a challenge ( except for the subjects he loves) But we muddle through it ( mostly a combination of bargaining and bribery). Ds is essentially a bright boy who hates and can't see the point of writing what he already knows for someone else's benefit. ( plus... The dyspraxia makes it difficult and it hurts)

Ask questions about laptops , scribes/extra time in exams. At ds's school they take some kids out of the class and teach them touch typing. Ask questions about TA help with his planner and organisation. Ask if they ofton apply for funding for children.

Get out there girl! You can do it

Has the primary school contacted your local Autism Outreach team? They often have someone who helps with the transition to secondary school. This could be useful when you find out which school your ds will be going to.

I have left three messages with SENCO depts to make appts! Thank you ladies

Yes, Trout I know ds2 has an enormous amount to offer a school, just don't know quite how to phrase it...my experience of Secondary school so far has been the hellishness of getting my first son through all the homework..

But as you say, Copper ds2 already behaves v well in class compared to others because he is interested in ideas and focuses when he is engaged (which is quite often)

We are going through the same process with ds1 at the moment. He has just had his statement finalised, but didn't have one when we went to visit some secondaries last term.

My ds is similar to yours, in that he is very academic, but struggles with writing. He taught himself to touch-type over the summer holidays using the Typing Instructor Platinum App, which is great. It has traditional lessons and practice, but also games where you do things like type a word to shoot space junk with a lazer and blast it out of the universe! He's doing really well with his typing now, typing speed of around 25 wpm and getting up to 42 wpm when he's into the flow and it's straightforward words. It's not cheap at £20.00, but I would definitely recommend it. We have had a problem with it, but that's because it's interacting oddly with some software my dh has on our MacBook, judging by the reviews most people think it's great.

I started a thread about visiting Secondary SEN departments back in July here and the lovely MNSNers came up with lots of great questions to ask, which really helped.

Best advice I can offer is try to not have any preconceptions of schools. We assumed that the very academic, results led local secondary wouldn't suit him, but we were really surprised. They have a large, well resourced SEN unit and we were met and shown around by the Director of Learning Resources, who answered all our questions plus a few we hadn't thought of. We were very impressed with them.

By contrast, the school everyone recommends for ASD support locally is one that has a Unit, but only for SPLD, so ds wouldn't get into it. Anecdotally, we were told that this school is better because they are used to children with additional needs and are set up to accommodate them. Having visited, we decided it wasn't the place for ds. The SENCO is ridiculously overstretched, the school is run-down and under-resourced and there are lots of children with quite bad behavioural issues. It just didn't feel right at all, whereas the academic school ticked all our boxes and felt right.

I agree that asking for a meeting with the SENCo is a good idea, although not foolproof. I didn't do this for DS as at the time he was undiagnosed. I know other people who did and felt as though the SENCo was putting them through their paces. However once DS was a pupil at the school the same SENCo pulled out all the stops to help him, started the diagnostic process and applied for a Statement for him.
Trying to contact other parents with children with AS would probably help. Is there a support group locally, because word soon gets round about which schools are good.
In my experience Secondary schools are much more geared up than Primary for handwriting problems. DS had an Alphasmart and extra time in exams and also a scribe for some. We did not even have to ask, school just organised it.

drat, the Platinum typing cd rom is now unavailable. Don't have an app facility.
Thank you very much Moosemama you are always very helpful, and such a good point about how the "obvious" solution is often not right for your particular child.
I didn't realise that SEN wasn't necessarily the same as Pastoral...of course that makes sense because people have emotional issues, family issues which are nothing to do with SEN but need pastoral support. It is a bit difficult to assess what is meant by pastoral support though without having experienced it first hand and it working out... Ds1's teacher, although kind and approachable has been very ill recently, and experienced a stillbirth or late miscarriage (I think, it wasn't made clear what happened) - she has returned to work and she is still his pastoral mentor, but I feel increasingly reluctant to bother her with any ishoos to with ds1, I feel she must be fragile, and I don't want to bother her, also there is a whole 2 months when she wasn't around and I don't want to upset her by telling her x and y happened in her absence or the gaps in provision when she was under the weather. So I'm not very good at asking for help, I always feel I am bothering someone!!!!

Must change all that, and accept that in a professional setting never be ashamed to ask for help/clarification...[Why were the Year 7's allowed to watch highly unsuitable Kick Ass (15rated) on last day of term for instance, when the supply teacher was in charge???? and this was a Catholic School...that's the sort of thing that niggles... Why was Ds1 given a C for citizenship on his report when he was always at Chamber Choir and so didn't actually attend any citizenship lessons??? that's the sort of thing I mean.. I haven't mentioned any of this to her...

What Troutpout stated in her post of 11.45.

You are your child's best and only advocate here. If you do not fight his corner for him, no-one else will.

In my experience of secondary school, a child without a statement with special needs will be treated exactly the same as a NT child and will be expected to keep up in terms of organisation as well like writing homework in the planner.

Statements are also for those who have social/communication issues as well; they do not cover just the academic side. Secondary school in particular can be a real nightmare that also impacts on thew family as a whole if the child within that school does not get his needs met.

"So I'm not very good at asking for help, I always feel I am bothering someone!!!!"

Its okay to ask for help, it really is. Its not a sign of weakness I can tell you.

And apply for the statement asap.

Attila I know your feelings about statements. But I have my reasons for not letting this consume me. Our council has repeatedly refused a statement to a friend's child with HFA. diagnosed at 4 years. He is now 12 years. His parents have applied 4 times. 4 times they have been refused. They receive excellent provision from a local secondary, without a statement. (But that particular school is a language and music specialist school, and that child is a artistic child, so the school suits him on levels that it would not suit my ds, so I can't just assume it would be best one)! That is why I know I will not get a statement without an enormous amount of work...if at all, and I wonder whether I wouldn't be better putting that work into ds2, not the bottomless pit of council bureaucracy. I don't want to put myself at breaking point when my mental health makes an enormous difference to the mental health of ds2.
Nevetheless, I will apply for a statement. But I won't let applying for a statement break me. Ds2 needs my energy and good humour as much as anything else, in fact the whole family needs that. Anyway, this wasn't meant to be a discussion about statements, more just asking for advice on the byways of Secondary Sencos.

Do not blithely assume that you won't get a statement regardless even though your friends have tried four times without success. They are still issued by LEAs. The process won't - and importantly does not - have to break you.

BTW all the children I know of who are on the ASD spectrum all have statements in secondary. They would not manage as well there otherwise and I do not personally believe that a child should just have to "cope" with school and being there.

Re the secondary SENCO meet them well in advance and get them on side. Would certainly agree with getting to know those as well who do the pastoral support for any one particular year, pastoral support is vitally important.

Seconding what Attila said.

Don't admit defeat before you've even tried to apply for a Statement

http://www.r-e-m.co.uk/rem/search.php?K=typing&CMB=and Educational Supplies shop have Typing Instructor and they have the kids version as well, although ds (10) was quite happy with the standard version.

Youtube videos about both programmes here.

I've heard other good ones are Typing Tournament and Nessy Fingers.

I agree with others about the statement thing. We were repeatedly told ds wasn't bad enough, our LEA wouldn't issue a statement for AS etc by just about everyone we met, be they medical or educational. I just made sure my application was as comprehensive and well organised as I possibly could and ds got SA and a statement on the first try. (It was nice to see the SENCO's face when I told her he was getting one! ) Once they knew he was getting a statement they moved on to telling me he would hardly get any funding units, which would make the statement meaningless - wrong again!

Lots of people are turned down in our LEA, but if you do it right (ie have lots of help from MNSN) it is possible to do it and get a statement first time.

It did monopolise our lives for a while, but not that long really, just a few months and we can now breathe out a little (well as soon as we can get the school to actually implement it - but that's another story [wink).

Oops Educational Supplies

and

Swan - you know the outcome with my son, so this may not give you much comfort, but I just wanted to point out that DS1's school did provide a lot of help to him without him having a statement and based solely on his diagnosis and history. He was put in a special needs class (small group of 15 children) and given the opportunity to leave class and sit with the head of the house whenever he felt anxious. He wasn't treated like the other children just because he didn't have a statement. The school also chose a class teacher for him who was particularly good with special needs' children and he proved invaluable in helping DS1 settle in.

I made an appointment with the Head of Special Needs at the school and spoke to her in depth before DS1 started at the school. I do think you need to push yourself forward and be your child's advocate right from the start.

"I am having difficulty getting my head round why the schools would actually want to help ds2 when he doesn't have a statement." If it is a good school, they will want to help.