Theory of mind - Sally and Ann test

[shoppingbagsundereyes]

So I tried this with ds (6 aspergers traits dx), dd (4, NT) and nephew (13 NT but occasionally a bit on the dopey side :) ).
All 3 said the ball was in the box. So either all 3 have no theory of mind or the test is a bit pants. When ds finished I said to him 'where does Sally think the ball is?' ( the wording of the test was ' where does Sally look for the ball') and ds got it right straight away.
Anyone tried this test and anyone got any more we can try?

DS (8) got it right. He has some traits. DS (4) NT I think) got it wrong.

A friend of mine who is a SALT tested Dd3 using 3 cups and a sweet. Like the magicians trick we all watched her put the sweet under the cup and then I had to leave the room.

While I was gone the sweet was moved, then I was called back and Dd3 was asked where I would think the sweet was. Everytime she said the cup where the sweet had been moved to. The SALT asked her each time why I would think it was there and each time she came up with some random answer such as "Its mum's favourite colour" but it was obvious that she had no idea that I wouldnt know it had been moved.

Some people dont believe in ToM. but I think it is an important part of ASD because it helps me to understand why Dd3 has difficulty understanding how much information to give or not give during a conversation and why Dd1 cannot see what impact her actions have on others.

I find theory of mind fascinating and wanted to test ds as while he has aspergers traits I am pretty sure he has average theory of mind. Eg if I am reading a story to him and ask what a character might be worrying about or excited about etc he has a pretty good go at answering. But maybe that just means he is good at reading comprehension.
Dd is as NT as they come and has pretty good language skills at 4 so in theory she should have got the test right but also thought the ball was in the box.

I've seen it done with Smarties being replaced with coins or buttons. Show 'Ann' some Smarties in a Smartie tube, send her out, replace them with buttons, bring her back in, shake the tube and ask, 'What does Ann think is in the tube?' My DS said 'Buttons' when he was 5, his NT (ish) brothers said 'Smarties.'

I asked my mums club friends all with 4.5 year olds and they almost all got it wrong. As did some of the mums. I guess ToM is not fully develpoed at 4.

My bright NT 6yr old just got it wrong! :-( it can't be a sure sign of ASD can it?

I think (having read a little bit about it on line because I find theory of mind quite fascinating) that you have to be quite careful in how the test is administered (preliminary questions by way of scene-setting, making sure the child understands the two characters, that they're playing a game, what's being hidden, etc.)- I think (as a parent) that when I tried to do it, I probably botched the way it was done.

I agree lurcio, the SALT who administered Dd3's ToM test explained what the test involved and what was expected of Dd3 before she did it.

Another SALT with less experience of the test tried to repeat it with Dd3 but everyone just got a bit confused and the result were a mixbag.

Just tried this with my two (both autistic).

My eldest pointed to the sock that sally had left the pen under (I had to improvise ) and my youngest looked blank and just pointed to where my eldest had pointed. On reflection, I should have done them separately. I suspect my youngest would have chosen where it was not where she'd left it.

I asked my eldest why he had chosen that one, and he said "because she placed it there"

From my neuroscience days, Theory of mind is expected to be developed between the age of about 3 and 5.

DS1 (AS) certainly could answer TOM questions from the age of 4. DS2 (awaiting HFA dx, but almost a certainty) had no clue until he was 5.

They can work out what the people would know when presented as a logic type problem. They can't/don't do it 'up to speed' in a real life situation, actually DS1 does now, but he is 10. But they can't work out at all how other people will feel when such a trick is played on them.

I had to improvise a little, so Sally was a plastic walrus, Ann was a soft-toy duck, and the basket and box were black and white cups respectively. The ball was actually a shiny penny

Ok, so I did this with DD3 (3.4) and she said 'she look in that one (walrus' cup), because that's where she left it and cheeky ducky moved the penny.'

So she passed with flying colours, I think. She knew that Walrus would look in the place he had left the penny, and why he wouldn't find it.

DD2 (5.0) said 'he'd look in that one (walrus' cup) because that's his cup'.

So, did she fail? She couldn't seem to make a decision related to the chain of events, she merely decided that as Walrus was looking for the penny, he'd look in his own cup.

(She's the one I am thinking might have HFA)

DD1 (6.8) said 'can I hold the penny? Can I put the penny in the cup? Can I hold Walrus?....then DD3 answered for her, so her results have been disqualified due to poor test conditions

When my DS was going through assessments...it was intriguing to realise that his capacity to improvise with objects when playing was limited and he recognised the objects only for what they were instead of being able to reassign them to expand the play scenario in front of him....

eg...the piece of sponge was ignored as a piece of sponge and he didn't even touch it...suggestions were made about the objects but he appeared to ignore any prompts or idea's and couldn't 'see' how the object could be interpreted any differently....the piece of sponge could not become a trampoline for the man to jump on or whatever....it was quite revealing and I hadn't really noticed this properly before...

It help to explain that when he 'played' with his trainset...it would be meticulously set up and then he would drive the train around the track...he would get very upset and exasperated if another child came along and didn't play with the trainset 'properly' eg...like it's meant to be in RL....you just can't run a train on the carpet...it should be on the track in his opinion...everyone else is wrong!!!
I would be wondering that he was having trouble sharing nicely but actually it was more to do with what another child was doing with the toy that upset him and he would angrily snatch it back and place it back on the track....it was interesting and helped me to deal with these issue's more appropriately, for him to learn that it was ok for this to happen and not to worry or correct other people playing....it highlighted why sometimes it could also appear that he wanted to be in charge of the play with others too...but it was more to do with his black and white approach and trying to control what is real and what is wrong from his perspective....

Interesting to hear the test usually comes with ith a bit of explanation. I just asked ds to read it aloud and answer the question. I think with more detail he would have got it right. Will try with smarties

My dd 13 AS passed all the higher level theory of mind tests with ease but she has no functional theory of mind. She knows the answers but can't use that knowledge in daily life. It is certainly very interesting.

Passing S & A does not disbar a person from an Aspergers diagnosis. Many Aspies actually do have ToM

even after repeating the test with ds2 & explaining how it all works he still gets it wrong each time.
DS1 (NT) always, without explanation got it right.

I sometimes struggle with it

do the smartie test
they're all 'false belief tests' but tbh the sally/ann takes too much explaining. we do the smartie test a lot and it works :)
ToM imho is a 'spectrum' too, with varying degrees of empathy and understanding of another persons pereption. Under 6yo NTs may not even have it so don't expect too much. it also develops over time too. Sorry if any of this has already been said, I haven;t read the whole thread