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Massive Ranting Moose Post - Bloody LEA, Bloody School, Bloody Statements! AAARGH!

49 replies

moosemama · 20/07/2012 14:10

Okay, so, as you probably know, we had been chasing the LEA to either issue a second/amended proposed statement or finalise so that we could appeal. We were expecting a finalised to push us to either appeal or drop out.

Last Thursday we received an amended proposed. Surprised, we assumed this meant that the LEA were still willing to negotiate.

Been pretty poorly over the last week, so only got around to calling them today to ask for a meeting (EP had said she was willing to attend a meeting to clarify her report and help get the wording in part 3 tighter) and ...... they said no. Angry

First she said there's no time because she is off on holiday in a week's time. Then she said there would be no point anyway, because they have no intention of making any further amendments.

Basically, she said they will only specify and quantify what has been specifically specified and quantified in the SA reports. I pointed out that the SA reports are all produced by LEA employees and having spoken to them they told me it's 'not their job to specify/quantify to that level of detail, only to identify the type of provision required (reading between the lines - we've been told we aren't allowed to Hmm). So, the LEA tell their EPs etc not to specify or quantify, which in and of itself isn't illegal, but, then they refuse to specify or quantify their statements other 'because it's not specified or quantified in the reports'. So they have effectively circumvented the blanket policy thing by laying the blame at report, rather than statement level and stating there isn't enough evidence in the reports.

She also said "we don't quantify in terms of time, frequency" Shock to which I said well that is a blanket policy then and I believe that's illegal.

I suggested mediation - she said we could if we wanted to, but no point as they aren't going to shift and will not specify or quantify any further.

I explained that things have moved on since we made our amendments and we now have a clearer idea of the type of provision available at secondary, so would in fact like to reword some of our rewords, so-to-speak. Explained that the tight level of quantification in one particular area is in effect obsolete at secondary, so we would welcome their help, along with the EP, in getting that bit right and that what we would like is to sit down together and agree something that works for us all and still provides ds with legally protected support. She said no - that there is no time for a meeting and they aren't going to change anything anyway, so no point. (Stuck-record springs to mind. Hmm)

Lots more was said and it was a resonable and calm conversation - up until the point I embarrassed myself by starting to cry. Blush She was surprised to hear some of the things the school have said and done and that I had had to fight to get ds recognised and supported by the school in the first place. She was ok really and we had a frank and reasonable discussion, but she still isn't going to budge.

Oh - and of course I was told we can appeal if we want to, but we will lose because there is simply no evidence in the reports to support the quantification that we are asking for.

She said we had to trust the school to provide the support in the statement and that the school had no choice anyway once a statement had been issued - I pointed out that I no longer trust the school, given the things that have gone on, which I explained to her earlier.

We discussed the qualifications of the person who will be working with ds on emotional literacy and she said the statement does say someone with 'knowledge and understanding of ASD' and therefore the person doing this would have to be suitably experienced. I explained I had discussed this with the EP after the school stated categorically that they wouldn't be employing anyone or sending anyone on additional training courses and that the 1 day whole school awareness all staff attended last year was enough. EP agreed that the awareness day wasn't enough and whoever it is should definitely have some specific training in anxiety and emotional literacy in ASD. The school have already said they aren't going to train someone up and the statement allows them to do this - therefore the statement is not sufficiently specified or quantified. SO's answer? It's not clear in the report, so we won't be changing it. AAARGH! I pointed out that their own EP, who wrote the bloody report agreed it wasn't clear enough and wanted to attend a meeting to straighten it out, but she said it doesn't matter, it's not in the report so they don't have to include it in the statement.

So, we are definitely off to appeal - I knew that anyway, but am now thinking that if that's their line of tack we are going to have to find a way to get independent evidence on the level and frequency of support and the qualifications of the person supplying it. Who is best for this Independent EP?

Finally, she said that the school have said if we succeed in getting the statement tightened up then they will be unable to meet his needs. I asked if that meant he could lose his place at a school he's been at for 7 years and she said yes! Shock I said surely that constitutes as an illegal exclusion based on disability and then she said the LEA would press the school to keep him, particularly as its his transitional year.

I also pointed out that the school is or has already supplied the support we are trying to quantify, we just want it set in stone so that they can't muck about with it whenever they like and so that his secondary will keep up the same level of support. Had to point out the irony of a school saying they can't meet ds's needs as set down in a statement that actually describes the support they are already giving him. Hmm Said I didn't get why they would say this unless it's financially motivated and she said she was confused about that as well.

Whole bloody thing is farcical - round and round with ridiculous arguments that either manipulate to stay just within the law - or downright flaut the law but don't care who knows about it because no-one can do a damn thing about it! Angry

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StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 14:14

Yes Moose!

You're ranting to the converted!

Need any help just shout........

moosemama · 20/07/2012 14:26

Thanks Star

Just needed to let it all out before I got back to work!

One good thing was that it did come across as you always say - nothing personal, just a person sitting there in the LEA office following their rules and trying to keep themselves in a job. It helps - a bit - to keep that in mind, as it meant we could talk to each other in a reasonable, non accusatory manner and there's at least no bad feeling - I hope.

Right, now I need to work out what independent reports we are likely to need for appeal. Was hoping to get away without, but it sounds like we are going to need someone to point out the bleeding obvious.

Independent EP? Will they tell us how many hours of social skills training and emotional literacy sessions etc?

Don't have a clue where we're going to find the money for it, but can't risk not having a strong enough case without.

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moosemama · 20/07/2012 14:28

What I don't get is why they didn't just finalise rather than issuing an amended proposed, if they have absolutely no intention of making any more amendments. We asked them to finalise, she said on the phone that they need and want to finalise asap - so why didn't they just blooming well do it? Confused

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StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 14:30

EP yes. Ask them if they will quantify and specify to the level you want before booking them. also check they are used to tribunals. not so much for performance on the day but to ensure report is tribunal-appropriate. This will send message to LA well before the day.

One good thing about LA not specifying is that there is no counter-argment when yours does.

StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 14:31

they are trying to push you through another academic year. You will probably need to focus now on the next placement.

StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 14:32

did I read that he is due to transition soon?

moosemama · 20/07/2012 14:48

That's what I thought Star.

Yes, he's just going into Y6, so that will be his last year of primary.

I actually said to the SO this morning that, given the problems with the primary, I would prefer to focus on getting the statement right for secondary and would therefore like to meet to discuss/review my amendments in light of my visits to secondary schools, as I now have a better idea of how ds's needs could be met under the secondary system ..... 'Computer says no'. No meeting at all, ever. Hmm

One good thing though. Dh went to a local ASD support group meeting for the first time last night and not only did he meet the parents of another child with similar needs to ds, who is happily attending the school we want ds to go to, but he also made contact with a local group who are experienced with fighting our LEA and seem very keen to help. I feel a little happier knowing that there is someone who knows our LEA and their particular brand of dirty tricks who can offer us some advice and support.

Any idea how I go about finding good EP in our area?

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NoHaudinMaWheest · 20/07/2012 15:00

Oh Moose so sorry to hear this. I am afraid I don't have any advice but hugs for having to go through tribunal after all.

starfish71 · 20/07/2012 15:14

Oh god moose, it is just crazy isn't it? Sounds a bit like the conversation I had earlier this week too. The support group sounds as though it is going to be very useful.

Sending support xx

AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/07/2012 15:28

Moosemama,

So sorry but am not altogether surprised given how this LEA of yours have behaved to date. They do not care for the emotional costs to parents and child.

Do this support group you met with know of any EPs?.

Also the NAS may have a list of EP people within your area. Another possible way is to have a word re the developmental paed if your DS is under the care of such a person as they may be able to provide you with details.

Who is your MP, I would also be attending one of his/her surgeries re this matter as you are one of his/her constituents.

Any chance of being able now to speak with a firm of Solicitors specialising in educational law?. I'd be looking into doing this as well though I fully realise that overall financial costs could be steep.

tryingtokeepintune · 20/07/2012 15:31

Could you ask someone from the support group which EP they can recommend? Are you using any legal representation? They might have someone they can recommend.

I called SOS!SEN and they gave me a list of EPs who have tribunal experience.

I am so sorry you are going through this but your LA sounds just like mine - can't quantify etc cos the reports don't state it but the SALT and EP are told by the LA not to specify or quantify etc. I had to get my independent EP (told the LA EP is offended by the term 'independent') to specify social skills group etc. and then get an independent SALT to specify and quantify further...

Good luck and we are all behind you.

moosemama · 20/07/2012 16:30

Thanks for the support guys. It's always nice to hear that we're not on our own in this mess. Smile

Not sure about the support group in relation to EPs, dh has only been to one meeting and unfortunately it was the last until next September. The other group sound like they know their stuff though and have asked dh to email as many details of our 'case' as possible to them. Not sure exactly what their set up is yet, but they are some sort of local charity set up to support parents of children who have disabilities.

No developmental paeds in our pct, so ds is just under a comm paed, but we do have an appointment with him very soon.

Dh has said he will contact our MP, as he's had dealings with them before.

As for solicitors, one of the SEN charities has said we should qualify for a legal case-worker based on my health problems and they will take us right through from appeal forms to tribunal and even represent if we want them to. They have a specific interest in cases with our LEA that involve refusal to specify and quantify. Hadn't thought to ask them for an EP recommendation, so that's worth a try. I shall be calling them first thing Monday to make sure I have my forms filled in correctly and am sending the right stuff to SENDIST. (The forms are ready and waiting to post, but I was idiot enough to hold them back as I thought the LEA was showing signs of wanting to negotiate and I was ill and hoping to avoid the stress of tribunal).

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StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 16:50

Under no circumstances indicate any health problems to your LA.

moosemama · 20/07/2012 17:18

I haven't Star, I just mentioned it to the charity because I was struggling on the day I called and must've sounded a bit odd, they then said it would qualify me for a caseworker.

The school know I had some health problems and investigations over the past couple of years, but not what the problem is and I have been careful not to talk about it with them and always to present a strong healthy image when I am at the school itself.

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moosemama · 20/07/2012 17:19

Been perusing a few EP sites, although obviously will go by recommendation, those I've seen that list costs/prices seem to be between £500 and £700, is that typical?

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StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 17:27

Sorry. It's about right.

Shite ain't it!

Tbh now we budget for an EP assessment a year in the same way as council tax etc.

WetAugust · 20/07/2012 17:30

You get what you pay for really. Report should be about £800 (ours was) plus additional day rate and travelling costs if they need to attend Tribunal.

But go for the best you can afford.

alison222 · 20/07/2012 17:31

Aww moose Sad .
I know that you were hoping that they were negotiating.
Well I guess all you can do is post those forms and get ready for the next step on the process.
SOS SEN gave me a list of EP's, but then I found none of them were available to do my report in time. One of them suggested that I got the registering body Achippp to ask members who could had the correct specialism to contact me to see if any of them could help.
I found the organisation to be very helpful.

I cant remember where you are but we used someone who is in North London but will travel if you want to know I will give you details.

alison222 · 20/07/2012 17:34

And ofr what its worth I got something similar about not quantifying - waffle about leaving it up to the school etc.
I just quoted the Sencop and cases on the IPSEA site at them and told them that it had to be transferable between schools if for some reason the one I specified failed, and that it was supposed to be an "idiots guide" to looking after DS so if it was not quantified how could any lay person (sencop again) know what provision was supposed to be provided unless it was properly detailed and quantified.
You need to do something similar and stick to your guns.

WetAugust · 20/07/2012 17:41

North London EP for us too. Expensive with long waiting list but highly respected (and a Rottweiler at Tribunals I was told by solicitor) Grin

moosemama · 20/07/2012 17:45

Thanks alison.

We're in the Midlands, so accessible to anywhere really and willing to travel to get the right EP. Both sets of grandparents have offered to help with the cost, which is really lovely of them, as we simply couldn't afford it ourselves.

I have already quoted, the Education Act, SENCOP and several IPSEA case law references to them - they're just not interested. Unfortunately they have form and are seemingly well known for these tactics, but have gotten away with it in the past, even when reported to the Sec of State for Education by IPSEA. I think they just think they are above the law and can do what they want. I pointed out that refusing to specify and quantify contravenes both law and legal guidelines and any statement that is issued without being specified and quantified is in actual fact both useless and illegal, but they had no hesitation in repeating that 'we don't quantify provision in that way'.

It's ridiculous really, it's such a low level statement, with very little provision - I can't believe they are making us fight for it. It's not as if we are asking for anything out of the ordinary or excessive - no 1:1 support at all. I kind of wish we'd asked for the moon now.

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moosemama · 20/07/2012 17:47

I have a sister in London, so we could conceivably combine EP assessment/s with visiting her. Can't remember which bit of London she's in. I think it might be Ealing? Could be wrong though, she's moved quite a few times in the last few years and I get all her addresses muddled up.

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StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 17:48

Moose, you might well be asking for the moon. EP likely to flag up need that hadn't occurred to you. Ours did. Ds' statement was twice as expensive as it would have been had they just given us what we wanted at the start and we LOST our tribunal Hmm.

The system is daft.

StarlightWithAsteroid · 20/07/2012 17:49

EP will need to see your Ds in school and possibly at home too.

moosemama · 20/07/2012 17:53

Hmm, if they need to ds in school then it would probably be best if it was someone closer, as they will be charging for travel on top.

Seems to be a dearth of them round here unfortunately and I really want someone who is experienced with tribunal stuff. Hopefully this local charity will have a decent recommendation or two.

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