EP/Scool arguing more than 4 interventions is overload and 1:1 support creates dependency

[KOKOagainandagain]

I am encountering a problem in DS's assessment in that EP and primary/secondary school are arguing that they are not able to meet all of DS's needs all of the time as this would constitute 'overload' and would require him to be removed from too many lessons. However, it is not the right thing to do (they argue) to provide 1:1 support in the classroom as this leads to 'prompt dependency' - their aim is to have as few interventions as possible with as little 1:1 support as possible. We started with this approach five years ago and intervention and support was increased because DS was unable to progress. Has anybody else encountered this mad argument?

Okay, so I think we're in agreement that if the child doesn't NEED a TA, then giving them one is likely to create dependency!?

Phew. We're in agreement.

Just off to show ds the bed thing. Will report back

Ah well, it is true I know nothing about literacy, but if you CAN learn things in parallel then you should. If there is an order, you shouldn't. The CT is responsible for differentiating for this, not the TA.

But my point is that the purpose of the 1:1 support person SHOULD be to develop the child's ability as quickly as possible to learn from the mainstream education. If th child is currently noble to do this, they won't learn it by being denied TA support.

DS (11) passes as NT and achieved 2b, 2a, and 3 on KS1 SATs. Unfortunately he does not work independently and - best case scenario - will only get Level 3 in KS2 SATs.

LEA learning support observed DS in class last week and wrote in her report 'DS spent a lot of time drawing on his whiteboard. He did not appear to be listening, nor did he engage with his partner. The class teacher worked with the pair to discuss the problems, but the abstract nature of the information was probably too much for DS to process' -ie choosing the method of working out a maths problem - addition, multiplication etc. EPs mind-blowing suggestion is that he copies or models another child - bring on the big guns - 1:1 with a qualified and experienced teacher doesn't work so its time for the untrained 11 year old. Fantastic - he gets to sit next to an NT child who is completely unable to explain why they 'get' things that DS does not. Wouldn't work anyway - he does not copy unless prompted to do so. Interventions outside the classroom have been of little benefit to him as he does not apply what he has learnt in one context in another.

I have demonstrated inadequate progress (using school standardised data plotted on standard distribution curves) and DS is now being assessed. They keep asking why I want a statement (well, duh) but it seems that they are gearing up to argue that it would be wrong to increase the amount of support that DS has and therefore that he does not need a statement. IEP just says 1:1 support in classroom 'as necessary' but CT has admitted that 9 times out of 10 she had to give him 1:1.

I agree that support from a TA to enable a child to 'cope' is mainstream creates a problematic relationship where dependence is an issue and impacts on self-image. Therefore, to my mind, DC who are not able to cope or progress in mainstream without substantial support should have the option of attending smaller, less complex schools with a whole school approach where they will experience greater independence. But I get the impression that this is about cost-cutting and my apparent agreement with the LEA is incidental and fear that DS will end up in MS without a statement and with inadequate support.

We have a similar problem keepon, ds cannot generalise, so anything he learns in small groups outside of the classroom is damn near useless to him. Eg he has attended the SEAL group since he was in Reception year (he's just going into year 6), most children only go to the elements of the SEAL group that they need, so attend for maybe half a term a year or so. Ds has done the whole year, every year for seven years and can tell you the answers to any of the topics. He can tell you how you should respond in certain social situations, but, he absolutely cannot apply them if/when those situation occur in rl. So, effectively the SEAL group is a big waste of time for him and one could see it, if cynical enough, as a way of getting him out of the teacher's way for a while. (SEAL group is taught by a TA, who has no knowledge or experience of ASD and the lessons are obviously organised from an NT perspective, so fail to take into account lack of theory of mind, for example.)

He has this year been sent out of class to handwriting groups where the TA running the group sat him next to the bully who had tormented him for years and was removed from his class at the beginning of this year (bully was also right handed, whereas ds is left). She then proceeded to teach him cursive, joined up writing, despite the OT report saying he will never be able to write any better than he can now, that he should be allowed to print his letters and use technology for anything greater than a paragraph. Of course TA had no idea he had even been assessed by OT, let alone read the report and taken on board the recommendations. Again, he can practise letter formation until the cows come home, but he cannot apply it to writing he does in lessons. Yet another waste of time.

Finally, they sent him out to a maths group designed to help him (and others) learn how to handle word-based maths problems. They actually said that he was of too high a level to be in the group and that the mathematical stuff it covered was much too low for his ability, but for some reason they thought he would suddenly be able to 'get' word based problems in class because they had worked on some in this group. Again, what he did in the group, failed to inform his classwork.

So, added to his weekly session with outreach he was attending four separate outside sessions a week. Even ds knew this was a bad idea and by Easter refused to attend the groups "because I am missing important classwork and missing lessons I enjoy". If ds, a then, 9 year old boy who has AS knew it was a ridiculous strategy, why couldn't the teaching staff? Basically, because it got him out of their hair for a few hours a week.

They negotiated with him to 'drop' one of the groups for 6 weeks and he chose to drop SEAL group.

The school insist that he only requires ad-hoc 1:1 in lessons, fair enough - but if that is the case, why does he need to be removed from the class several hours a week?

Anyway, that's by the by. Is the assessment you mentioned Statutory Assessment for a Statement? Are you in the process of trying to get him a statement yourself?

DS is undergoing SA - 2 refusals but papers went back to panel after 2nd refusual and assessment was agreed. He has an appointment at the APD clinic at GOSH but it is not until 14 August and our deadline is 2 August. I have also been trying to get in contact with Daphne Keen but can't get past her bulldog secretary for an ASD assessment. At the moment we only have dyslexia, dyscaculia, dyspraxia, ADD traits, low working memory - he had all sorts of other issues and we have done retained reflex therapy and vision training. We also have evidence of inadequate progress. LEA - surprise, surprise - say that we don't need a diagnosis - despite the fact that the 'diagnosis' of dyslexia unleased new intervention and support. LEA are trying to focus on dyslexia because they don't do statements for dyslexia (unless 5 years behind average). I predict a NIL.

What's interesting is that he appeared to make good progress in KS1 and then none in KS2.

Do you have any theories as to why?

Right, so you he is going through SA at the moment, but you think they are going to say he doesn't need any more support than the school is already offering - hence NIL.

If you have a dyspraxia dx, they can't just focus on the dyslexia and the low working memory in conjunction with the dypraxia is enough for him to need considerable pastoral support with things like organising himself, remembering and writing down homework etc.

Try not to worry about your APD appointment coming too late for SA. It's unfortunate, but at least you are getting one and then if they do come up with a NIL you will be in a strong position to appeal straight away and admit the GOSH findings as part of your evidence, putting you in a stronger position. Hopefully by then you will have managed to get in to see DK as well and that will strengthen your position even further, especially with the evidence of inadequate progress. It does sound like you are likely to end up at tribunal, but I think once you are there you will have all the evidence you need to make sure your ds's needs are addressed and supported.

Hopefully between DK and GOSH they will be able to identify the best strategies for supporting your ds and suggest the most suitable learning environment. It's not fair that we have to fight all the way to tribunal to get what our children our entitled to, in fact I have been ranting and stamping around the house about it much of today myself, but we'll do it anyway and it does sound like once you are there you will be in a really strong position.

indigo I would love to know for sure why he has made so little progress in KS2. atm I am going with the theory that he managed to combine the social and academic curriculums in KS1 and so was able to attain well despite only working for about 10% of the time. As the work got harder in KS2 he seems to have jettisoned the academic. DS 'hides' his behaviour at school or more accurately it comes out in different ways and/or he is overwhelmed and I think he may be using so much intellectual energy to try to understand social situations that he has nothing left for academic progress.

moose thanks for the supportive comments - feeling crappy about things today - not helped by DS's end of yr 6 report. HT/senco is an incompetent liar - I know this but it still pisses me off. As science was not externally examined he had made up last years attainment (2c) and this year's attainment (3a). Wow - 5 sub-levels in one year. Except he scored 2a on his KS1 SATs 4 years ago and was a 3b 2 years ago so it is really 1 sub-level progress in in 2 years. Bastard.

Also the 'inadequate progress' seems to lose its weight as DS is transferring from primary to secondary. Just because 2 primaries have not enabled progress does not mean that another school cannot do so. Back to ground hog day, year 0, same old crap of suck it and see that we have had for years. Another wasted year.

KeepOn for you. We have had similar lies 'ahem' fantasies regarding ds's progress. It would help if they could at least remember which lie fantasy they put on previous reports wouldn't it.

Ds1 progressed well academically through KS1 and similar to your ds his progress completely halted as soon as he hit KS2. I think you may be right regarding trying so hard to cope socially/emotionally that it's harder for them to access the curriculum. Ds also found the change from a very fluid classroom structure with a good staff to pupil ratio in KS1, to a more formal learning style and just one teacher per class in KS2 hard to handle. The focus on presentation skills and faster paced working also knocked his confidence and essentially he gave up trying, because he no longer believed in himself. Ds also camouflages himself at school, so they don't see (and obviously don't believe) a lot of what we tell them about how he is struggling. \

I would argue that, given the stalling of progress following his last major KS transition (giving the reasons stated above) he is likely to need greater provision to ensure progress, as quite apart from the transition process itself, by definition secondary schools expect children to be more able to organise themselves and their equipment and be self-starting and managing with regards to academic work. If you could get something along those lines that from DK it would really help your case.

Secondary school will be very different and may suit him better.

If his levels are accurate and he really is a level 3 then he's not that far behind, which is obviously a good thing.

If your secondary school streams he'll be in the bottom or even second to bottom one. These streams are usually very small. I'd expect only 15 kids or so in it. And the teacher will be going at a pace that is appropriate for 15 level 3s.

He might do better in that environment.

Equally I know he might not. But really he might. Bottom sets are taught in a very different way to mixed ability classes.

It's very significant that he made good progress in KS1. It means he can make good progress. And he can or could work independently.

Just not sure how you can make the environment such that he can do so....

I'm not convinced 1:1 is the only solution to his problems. Very much depends on the secondary school.

Indigo... I need to commit your last post to memory so I can recite it to myself when the very thought of high school starts me off with palpitations!

According to the Senco at the secondary he would be in a group of 15 for english and maths. At the moment DS will not even entertain the thought of going to this school - I told him that the Senco and support teacher I had met seemed nice and understanding (alarmingly so) and his response was 'Don't let them trick you mummy'.

I would love to believe it would suit him better and secondary does genuinely suit some DS better and academic work can give instrinsic satisfaction and self-worth but I do genuinely believe that the problems he has now can only be exacerbated. It feels like having spent primary education being in a cage with a single lion cub (and mauled on a regular basis) it has now been decided that he is ready to enter a cage with 15 adult male lions.

He can work independently on anything art related and spends hours (each day!)researching scooters.

To me the difference between KS1 and KS2 is that it moves from rote learning simple material to having to fully understand and apply information for functional and practical purposes.Children with ASD are often ahead at ks1 because they rote learn it, or are good at learning patterns and rules, but can't apply it, or even see the point of applying it. So I don't think this pattern of falling behind is unusual. Often I think schools overscore young children with asd because they have not appreciated how much is rote learnt but not understood.

DS is 5 and severe ASD but normal IQ. He would not pass for NT by some stretch. He has FT ABA support and attends m/s half time. His ABA provider does fade back when she can to promote independence. This may be for a few seconds or minutes depending on the task. She may go and stand outside the room. Thats considered an achievement for DS not a waste of her time!

The point being that promoting independence is part of her job and she knows what he can and cannot do and it depends on who he is working with e.g. 1:1, small group, large group, which teacher /TA (some are clearer / better at engaging him that others), what task - if preferred or non preferred. They have a hierarchy and score how long he can stay on task independently and looks at generalising all the time e.g. in 1:1 the ABA support will pretend to get distracted when giving instructions to make it more real life so he is more likely to stay on task in class when the teacher is distracted. They will move tasks further away from them and increase the distance he must travel independently to do the task. They will practise in 1:1, then small group, then large group. All this is done very systematically, one step at a time.

ABA provider's aim for every child is for them to be completely independent in a m/s class. But not every child will succeed. They also only remove support once the child has proved - with data - they can manage that task, in that setting, with that teacher / group independently for x minutes. They have criteria of success before support is removed.

There is no prospect at all of the child learning independently without support if they have failed to learn with support. It is just the typical cost cutting bollocks. Where is their evidence learning will increase without support? Will they be setting a measurable target to prove its effective?

I do agree that observing other children is a huge key to learning. DS has a programme specifically to teach him to watch what other children are doing. Gaining observational learning skills would mean he could learn without an adult teaching him 1:1 and would speed up what he learns (he would be learning all the time not just in therapy) and use less resources. But again its a skill that has to be taught, your child will not just know to copy his peers if thats not a skill they have. DS has been rewarded (with token system) for a year for copying peers and he is just now showing glimpses of tuning in to what the other children are doing and watching them rather than his 1:1.

So they are right that these skills of independence and observational learning from peers are really important. But they have to teach these skills first! They are not just going to magically appear because the TA is not there. More likely your child will just use the time out to revert to favourite activities - in my DS case completely non functional repetitive behaviours would just take over and become a complete barrier to any learning at all.

Just appeal. From what you describe he would be more than entitled to a statement. I also agree with you your child may be better off in a school with more specialist staff.

It is also a debate about whether what they are learning in the class is right for him, or whether he needs an autism specific curriculum. Is learning about Vikings what your child needs right now? Or are there massive deficits in communication, life skills, independence, motivation etc etc which are more deserving of the time? Its about teaching what he needs to learn. Not making him learn what they want to teach.

If he won't go to school - then it doesn't matter if he has a 1:1 or not :(

Agnes - I dont think rote learning is expected in KS1 and applying it in KS2. But you are right that there is a jump between level 3 and level 4.

to get a level 4 in reading you have to be able to infer meaning and emotions from the text. His ASD may mean he can't do this, no matter how much (or who by) he is taught it.

I'm really sorry. I'm not trying to be negative. I'm sure I come across all wrong. I just think you need be very confident 1:1 will probably help before you ruin your life trying to get it.....

There certainly have been threads by upset parents who fought for 1:1 and got it and then found it didn't help or their child refused to work with them.

If you think 1:1 at school would help, why haven't you got him a tutor for outside school?

• you couldn't afford it?
• couldn't find anyone you'd trust?
• didn't want to put extra pressure on him at home?
• didn't think it would help?
• didn't realise the scale of the problem?
• you have, and it didn't help?
• ????

The answer to that question will also help put in perspective how much energy you should put into fighting for 1:1

It is possible to arrange with school that your child will have tutoring at school in school time.....

I agree with Indigo that 1:1 is very often not the answer. I feel that it is seen as a cure-all.

I know that I say that from a position of privilege, because DD1 is in a superb special school, which I didn't have to go to tribunal for (although I would dispute any claim that I didn't have to fight for it. I did, hard.)

If DD1 was in MS she would need full 1:1 for safety, but I would see it as being to her greatest detriment now, having seen her ability to function in a specialist environment.

lougle I agree totally - DS cares deeply about social relationships - all his hard work to 'pass' is wasted when the kids he wants to befriend can see that he requires 1:1. The cool kids in his class are academic high achievers (G&T, place at top grammar school in country) but in MS he would be unable to cope organisationally and academically without 1:1. Plus the bottom set does not just contain DC with SN - to my mind it is a mix of vulnerable targets with SN and those most 'street-wise' and/or likely to bully.

agnes I am a fan of modelling (NLP plus a major theme of my doctoral thesis presently on hold) but agree that skills need to be taught (and learnt) and that support needs to be gradually reduced. I worry that cash-strapped schools/LEAs have seized upon a rational of reduction but have no idea how to teach the skills necessary.

indigo I considered getting a tutor in year 3 when DS had above average attainment but I suspected the development of learning gaps in the future as he was not working. At the time though we were working through the reams of exercises given by the CPOC clinic and which I considered to be more important. He hates making mistakes so we had to spend a lot of time taking two steps backward. DS's attainment in comparison to average peers was one of the main reasons why we were disbelieved and we had the problem of non-generalisation which we were aware of by that point. Plus his SpLD had not been diagnosed at that time and we did not know what the problem was and so what sort of tutoring would be appropriate. He also imposes a strict divide between home and school and homework would be the cause of several meltdowns each week. This year he has been excused all homework unless it is specifically art-based. He was supposed to be supported at school but this quickly fell apart as they were unable to get him to do anything. Thus a tutor would be bringing school into the home.

Maybe his secondary would do this if I ever persuade him to attend. I am worried that he will drop out of the system if I can't get him there - wouldn't this give support to the LEA as there would be no objective evidence of rate of progress if he was not in school plus this could be blamed for current lack of progress?

If you don't want to go down the HE route I really would consider getting a tutor to work with him a couple of hours a week in school.

Then the tutor reports to you. You pay him. So there's no bullshit. You only pay him if you're happy. He has to do exactly what you ask....

But your biggest problem is that he refuses to go to school. You need to unpick that before you can do anything else.....