Bullying? Spectrum? Anxiety? What else could it be? Beck Youth questionaire...

[Puffinsaresmall]

I started a thread a while ago about my dd who the teachers suspect may be on the spectrum. An ed psych is involved (has observed at school and is writing a report, should receive in next two weeks). Thread is here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/1459456-Teacher-just-mentioned-autism-at-parents-evening-what-next

Ed psych gave us questionaires to fill in, one was the Beck Youth questionaire. DD had to answer the questions. It was heartrending. Do you feel scared at school - always, Do you feel worried - Always, Do you want to die (?!!!!) - Sometimes

She seems to be getting more and more upset. Friday she spent half of the day crying (according to her and teacher), yesterday I had to pick her up from school because she 'felt ill' but really was very upset and didn't want to be there. When I tried to find out what had happened at school she said one of the girls had stuck her tongue out at her five times, but this was 4 hours before and I can't see how that would account for how hysterical she was. I think she would tell me if something more had happened, she normally is quite open about it 'they wouldn't let me play, they called me nasty names etc'.

Last two nights she's been screaming and shouting at us and has now started hitting herself when in one of these screaming fits? Rages?

I just don't know what to do. Does it sound like spectrum behaviour? Or anxiety related? Could it be linked to bullying? And if it is bullying then how on earth can I/the school make people play with her? Could it be a MH issue?

Am so confused and distraught over all this, it feels like my lovely daughter has suddenly turned into a stranger. Any ideas would be gratefully received.

It does sound like an anxiety issue - which could stem form a number of different things (sorry, no help there, really!)

how open are the school to helping/trying new things? my dd2 is 5, in reception, and has many spectrum traits (dd1 is severely ASD; dd2 'hovers' around the AS/NT border, with many anxiety and control issues)

I could easily see dd2 being upset hours later over something like another child sticking their tongue out repeatedly - in dd2's world it:

1. is wrong to do so (rude)
2. has come from nowhere (ie there was no reason for the child to do so)
3. the child did it again when they knew it up set dd2, leading to
4. why would someone do that deliberately when they know it upsets her?
5. no one helped her get over it (it is such a trivial thing to everyone else - a real 'get on with life' situation, if you are not tying yourself up in knots over 1-4 above) 6)why would anyone be rude for no reason? it is naughty, so why can't the other children just follow the rules?

and so on. and on. and on. meaning it all gets far bigger than it should.

dd2's teacher this year has been absolutely fantastic at listening to me (even when I sound deeply neurotic!), and keeping an eye on what is going on. there has not been too much trouble for dd2, although there have ben issues along the way. there has recently been much debate about whether to keep dd2 and her 'best' friend together next year or split them up in the class shuffle, because there is far too much of the above sort of situation happening, and it is all getting a bit much. dd2 does not really understand the more complex social situations (liek playground teasing), and so can either deal with it and shrug it off and go and play with someone else, or crumble entirely, which is counter-productive (and means that other children know how to wind her up, which is also not helpful!)

That's really interesting Silver. You see I think/know dd's thoughts would be very much the same:

Girl sticks tongue out at dd
They're at the end of the break, bell has gone, they have to keep still, so dd won't:
do it back
shrug
tell her to stop it
tell a teacher

because the rule is they don't move after the first bell.

When asked WHY ON EARTH DOES IT MATTER (I'm afraid I'm starting to lose patience, yesterday's event meant getting dd2 up mid way through her nap, getting a cab to the school, breaking into their piggy banks to pay said cab (we don't keep money in the house and dp had the cash card) and then getting them both home just to have dd1 playing and laughing as though nothing was wrong) She will just say 'because its mean' or 'because its against the rules' etc

She also has started getting very upset that I taught her 'treat others as you want to be treated' and she is beyond upset that others don't do this. She just can't understand, she keeps saying 'But that means they must want people to be horrible to them because they're horrible to me'. I've tried to explain but she just gets really upset.

And I suppose if it is bullying thats upsetting her, maybe she's being bullied because she's different? Or maybe she's reacting in a way that guarantees that she'll be bullied more (I know she reacts as you say your dd does, the bullies think its fucking brilliant ) or maybe its not bullying but she perceives it to be?

So confusing and we just don't know what to do for best.

sorry i didn't answer your question. The school is independent but about to become non independent (in just over a year). They have no senco or any experience at all I don't think of anything like this. They are trying very hard though and her teachers are lovely.

Also I think its quite difficult for them as they're trying to teach the rest of the class and dd is crying or disrupting the others ('She STARED AT ME' etc).

They've been very helpful and recommended the ed psych and have been working with us.

Problem is when she's getting upset over what everyone else thinks is totally trivial then its a bit 'pull yourself together'. Thank goodness at least they recognise she's not being 'naughty'.

dd2 has recently been very upset because her friend wants to kiss her (peck on cheek stuff).

no big deal.

except dd2 doesn't want her to, leading to her friend chasing her around, with dd2 getting more and more upset - dd2 has been taught to stop if someone says they don;t like it/want to play (she is no paragon of virtue, please belive me! but does follow the rules, especially in school). we have been very hot on this in particular, as she really needs to listen to dd1 if dd1 is saying 'no'

but, froma typical, average, small child's point of view - absolutely fantastic! guaranteed way of getting attention/winding someone up, all in the guise of 'playing' (again, it's not as though all other small children are evil and only want to wind ehr up, but the guaranteed reaction is always a good thing to exploit)

from what you say, it sounds as though your dd is having trouble keeping up with social situations. ie, she can understand rules, but cannot flex them (and they are always flexed, bent and broken - especially at primary school!) to make sense of everyday situations.

is she much better with adults?

we have been working on things like this with dd2 al her life, seemingly - obvously because we have been slowly teaching the same rules ot her older sister, and so dd2 has been soaking it up alongside. and of course, she is more than aware that different people react differently, given her sister's issues.

one way we talk it up is to eg find something she is good at (like following the rules - gold star, although with my dd2 is it embarrassingly 'goody two shoes' at times), and something she is not so good at (but that someone she likes/admires/looks up to - preferably a peer). talk through the differences, and how everyone learns at different rates (we found it helpful to also model for her that mummy/daddy/beloved-oh-so-perfect teacher also make mistakes, and that mistakes don't matter - how you deal with it matters), and everyone finds different things easy/difficult/somewhere int he middle.

so, when dd2 complains that her friend is trying to kiss her, and why doesn't she listen, and just stop like she is supposed to, we talk about how her friend is finding it a bit harder to learn to listen when people say 'stop', but that she is good at other things (some of which dd2 finds hard, some easy) - like swimming, where her friend is top of the class. and that eventually, we all know the same things, but we learn them in different orders, etc.

x-posts.

well, at least they are listening, and the non-naughty label is a good start.

would they be happy to work with your dd on overcoming these issues? you/she/they need to start small. so, for eg, your dd needs to start becoming comfortable with people looking/sitting next to/sticking tongue out.

teacher needs to be hyper aware (so is aware it has happened, without making a big deal of it), an maybe have some stickers/reward chart/whatever works for your dd that is integratable into school ready - so child A sticks tongue out, your dd (after much internal struggle) doesn't immediately react - instant reward. and then slowly build it up to bigger time lapses/all of circle time/lunch time/whenever.

be aware that what your dd might be finding most uncomfortable is actually being in class - and she has found a way out of it. she can cry and cry until you fetch her. a tricky place to be, as of course you don't want to leave her upset, and if she is so upset then the school cannot necessarily easily cope, but she may well be getting the ultimate reward - ie time back home with oyu, away from social stresses - by being so upset.

I've got to go to sports day but this is very helpful thank you.

We're struggling with - how much do we talk to her re worrying - will it make her dwell on it will it make her worse? If we just ignore it will it go away? If we comfort her too much are we encouraging it? If we try the more 'deal with it' tack isn't that just cruel?

Is she doing it to get out of school? Probably but if so, why? What's going on that's so bad?

Wwe've got lots of books on children and anxiety and have been working through the children's workborks with her. We've done lots of role play about how people argue/fall out/make up/compromise. But are we just feeding this and making her stand out more because other children just do whatever they like without all these thoughts?

Its so hard. And I do have to keep reminding myself that the other children are only seven too and not evil although I want to gut them like fish every time she comes home crying

Her school are clearly not meeting her additional needs and are additionally not able to do so. She is being failed here by school. She may well conform there or try very hard to do so but the stress of having to do so is too much and therefore she takes it out on you post school because it is safe to do so. Your DD is having a great deal of difficulty reading social situations which could also tie in with her possibly being on the autistic spectrum.

I would actually start looking around other schools. Your DD needs a school with a hopefully on the ball SENCO in it. Her current school cannot meet her needs.

I would say that EP CANNOT diagnose anything like ASD, what these people do is make recommendations re additional educational needs within school.

If your DD has not to date seen a developmental paediatrician she needs to be referred via the GP to such a person.

Attilla - I know what you mean re the school, we chose it because it has small class sizes and a really friendly atmosphere. She's been there since about 6 months and would/could stay till she's 18, but re SN its rubbish.

I'm hoping that because its turning 'non private' next year things such as a senco etc will have to be brought in over the next 12 months. I certainly think they're lagging way behind in this respect.

I call the lady who has observed an ed psych but atually she's a clinical psychologist is that the same as a developmental paediatrican? Im guessing not but as a lay person I have no idea how they all fit together. It was the gp that referred us to this lady after the school had suggested her.

It's unusual afaik but not absolutely impossible for a clin psych to diagnose ASD.

silverfrog raises a v good point - you coming to collect her should be last resort - she should be able to feel comfortable enough in the classroom to manage all day. I think there is something about the age group that the more socially savvy ones can be less than kind to others (S found the y1/y2 transition v hard).

I'm trying to think laterally in terms of what would help with anxiety in response to your query about how to deal with her worries. I think it has to be a mixture really - of her feeling listened to and able to air her worries, of helping her work through her worries, and of a bit of distraction/fun activities to help her calm down - massage/hair plaiting/badge making - whatever floats her boat.

btw the treat others as you want to be treated is a bit of a dilemma tbh, I've had friends point out to me that I sometimes have unreastically high expectations of DS.

thinking back to my childhood - the teariness over seeming trivia was probably a straw/camels back situation - that there had been other stuff building up, feeling lonely/stressed etc.

argh just posted long post and lost it. Will try again in a min.

Yo TLP - hopefully the above ^^ explains why I haven't been around much on FB.

Its so hard isn't it? I don't want to go and pick her up or keep her off school as obviously they're short term solutions but there again I can't bear the thought of her being unhappy there either.

I'm not in a good place mentally. I was badly bullied at school and this is all like history repeating itself and I'm determined not to 'fail' her as I feel my parents 'failed' me. I just don't know what to do. Just want the clinical psych to hurry up and write the report so we can maybe get to the bottom of it.

Your dd sounds very similar to my ds in terms of anxiety and social/communication issues. He would be exactly the same, something like a child making a comment to him first thing in the morning will leave him distraught for the rest of the day - sometimes longer. He takes up a lot of the teachers' time with his worries and upsets and obviously this impacts on the other pupils. He's also had to be picked up from school occasionally (although not for a long time now thankfully) when his anxiety has triggered physical symptoms such as headaches/migraines, nausea, diarrhoea and reflux. Like your daughter, after a short while at home with everything quiet and familiar he relaxes and is fine.

He also has incredible rages in the evenings after school, as a result of trying so hard to hold it together all day. He describes himself as 'blocking up' the hurt/upset/stress/confusion at school. Unfortunately, this leaves him like a shaken pop bottle by the time he gets home and as soon as he relaxes out pops the cork.

This time of year is particularly hard, with year group transition, end of year activities, jubilee, olympic day, sports day etc. He can't cope with either the disruption or the over-excitement. To say we have been struggling over the past couple of weeks would be a massive understatement.

I would second Attilla and recommend a GP referral for a proper assessment of your dd's issues and see what that brings up. A developmental paediatrician referral is the best, but dev paeds are like hens teeth in many pcts, so it might be that you get referred to the community paed and then on to whoever assesses in your area. In my area we have a dedicated multi-disciplinary assessment unit and team, which consists of a paediatrician, clinical psych, ed psych and occupational therapist. One visit and observation at school won't be anywhere near enough to properly diagnose your dd, although it might help to identify some strategies that might help the school to work with and support her more effectively. Ds had several school observations, a couple of paed appointments, 12 weeks working with an ed psych and then an ADOS (diagnostic assessment process) at the multi-disciplinary unit, followed by an OT assessment, along with all the questionnaires they asked us to fill in and two parental interviews.

You say the school is going to start being government funded soon, so will be getting a SENCO etc, but I'm afraid it takes a long time for a school to change with regard to SEN procedures and issues. Our school was hopeless and is improving after a change of Head and SENCO, but three years down the line they have a long way to go and still manage to fail a lot of the children they have on the SEN register. I would recommend perhaps just visiting a few local schools, meeting with their SENCOs and seeing what you think. You might be surprised, as support can vary widely from school to school and you might be surprised and find one you feel would suit your dd better.

Moose - they sound so similar DD often has stomach aches etc because of worry I think.

She's definitely better at weekends, once she's calmed down.

It was her sport's day today (dd2's was yesterday) but its just been cancelled because of rain. DP has gone to the school to reassure her that her grandparents are still coming to see her tonight and all is fine. I thought I'd do this preemptively as I know that the minute she finds out that it's cancelled she'll have a meltdown, worried sick that she won't see her grandparents who were due to meet up at sport's day iyswim. It's so tiring having to 'think ahead' constantly to what's likely to set her off and try to head it off at the pass.

My GP seemed pretty clueless. So I should make an appointment and ask for a referral to a developmental paediatrician? Will ring GP today.

Ds1 was diagnosed with Aspergers last year, just before his 9th birthday and generally he has come a long way since then, although things are always hard at this point in the school year.

It is hard always having to think ahead and head problems off at the pass, but the alternative is just as bad, leaving you with no choice but to keep on keeping on. It's exhausting. We would have had to do the same thing re grandparents and sports day if it had happened to ds1.

Good luck with the GP. Take a list of your concerns with you and insist on a referral.

Clinical pysch may or may not be able to diagnose ASD here. You ideally need to see a developmental paed but what Moosemama (Hi Moose) has written also applies.

Do ask GP for a referral to a developmental paed.

Do let us know how you are getting on.

Don't worry I'll keep you all updated, I'll be back every day for a shoulder to cry on I think the way its going at the moment

Will start ringing people tomorrow, this lady that's already involved (was supposed to phone me last Friday or 'over the weekend' heard nothing at all ) and the gp now I know what to ask for

Thank you all

In the meantime, you might want to do your own reading around the subject, you might particularly want to think about if your DD is likely to have any sensory or subtle language issues that could be affecting her at school. eg. is lunchtime too noisy/food smelly etc? and how she is in unstructured time at school - break times etc