Number writing query

[coff33pot]

DS has out no issues with problem solving and working maths and infact loves it.

However he has problems writing the numbers down. ALL numbers are written backwards even from copying.

As an example I gave him rows of numbers all mixed up and asked DS to write them down in order starting with the smallest first. They ranged from 2 to 89 in rows of 6 and within 9 mins he completed all 7 rows himself.

All were correct order wise but I was studying the way he writes them down.

As I said all numbers are written backwards BUT also the double figure numbers ie. 26 or 80 he writes from right to left?

so I mean for 26 he writes the 2 to the right first then the 6 so you end up with 62? for 80 he wrote the 8 first to the right then the 0 to the left so he ends up with 08. 31 ends up 13 etc but also backward figs sigh.....

Its like he is writing the correct number to start with but the wrong way round and back to front.

He has no problem telling you its 80, 31, 26 from the paper so must be how he sees them I suppose? Any ideas on HOW I sort this little issue out please?

Does he do it with letters/words too, or just numbers?

Seems to be just numbers mrsbaffled. But he has real writing issues too in the way he holds his pencil and presses to hard. He can write his name and he does have issues with some of the letters being written backwards but again he can read each letter of the alphabet but the p,b,s,a,e,y are he wrong way.

He doesnt write words from right to left though but he is an avid refuser of writing full stop

Not sure, really, but my DS (nearly 8) did the same, but seems to have mostly grown out of it now. I don't know if it was connected to his eye tracking problems?? He still writes a lot of numbers backwards, but L-R now (whereas it used to be in either direction). I am doing a lot of work with him on letter formation. It's helping. He's now learnt to do 'p' correctly, but still needs to unlearn his incorrect formation in lots of others. I let him learn them wrong as I was so delighted he was writing anything at all so didn't want to put him off by telling him he was doing it wrong :( He has fine motor issues so hates writing too :(

Ds2, the nt one - who was 8 last month, does this. He also reverses several letters (b/d, p/q, s, e, j and l) and occasionally mirror writes as well - particuarly his own name for some reason.

I've raised it a few times with the school and they just do the usual of telling me he is young and will probably grow out of it.

Like your ds, he has no problems working out the actual sums though - he still knows what number he's written and gets the answers right.

We have recently realised he's worse on computers, two digit numbers are typed backwards, so 21 would be entered as 12 and he can't distinguish a decimal style 2 from a 5 on say, a digital clock or scales.

He has been getting slowly better with it this year though and can now at least see he's reversed them and go back and make corrections, whereas last year he had no idea he was doing it. It has taken a lot of support though, with myself and his teachers going through work with him and showing him the reversals until he started to be able to see them himself. Now we can just remind him to do a final check before he hands it in and he gets about 99% of them.

He still needs a guide of the correct letter and number formations in front of him when he's writing though. He will often still copy them wrong, but is more able to recognise the reversals afterwards if he has a correct example to check against. At school he has developed his own strategy of finding the right versions on the notice boards or classroom displays, or he uses his number line or number square. At home we make sure he has a ruler for his number formation and keep a book open on the table for him to use for letter formation.

In ds2's case, he lost all his letter and number skills after a serious illness when he was in reception year and had to start from scratch in year 1. I wonder whether this means that, due to effectively starting late, he is just delayed in developing concrete skills in these areas and his teachers might be right that he will grow out of it. I have heard, although I don't know how true/accurate it is, that up until the age of 8 it's still considered normal for children to reverse letters and numbers. I wasn't happy and didn't agree with this at all until recently though, as I felt he wasn't improving, but it does seem that he is really coming on with this now and I'm hopeful that they might be right and he may grow out of it.

That said, if he is still reversing by the time he goes into year 4, I will be pushing for him to be screened for, well I'm not sure really, dyslexia/dyscalclula I suppose?

Thanks moose/mrsbaffled

For some reason he seems to be getting worse rather than better at the moment which is my worry.

We have started playing moshi monster cards with him so he reads the double numbers at the bottom. Now he was ok for a while but then lately has started reading 67 as 76 etc but on a hint from us will correct himself.

He has had a thorough eye check and visually he is quite long sighted but the optician doesnt feel it is an issue given his age at present and it should adjust itself. She tested for periferal, used various coloured lenses etc and with another test she did she cant see any tracking issues. We had him tested due to his eye rolling tics at the GPs request (yes I know)

My father has an issue of transposing figures all the time in tel nos addresses etc so it could be one of those things.

DS also writes numbers from the bottom up he is so higgledy piggledy lol

He also has issues with writing words from his head to paper apart from his name. Can copy off the board (as he says they are pictures) but cannot seem to form a word in his head and write it down. Not sure at the moment wether that is due to a concentration factor or sensory issues due to school but its causing no end of grief.

Maths he fires the answers out from his head but oh boy when it comes to writing them down its a mess.

It is difficult to know what to do isn't it.

If he has trouble forming images in his head, but can copy off the board etc, does that make him a visual learner? I wonder if we can think of something along those lines to help?

Am far too tired to be of any use tonight, but will have a think and get back to you.

Interestingly, ds2 also starts his letters in the wrong place, draws his O's backwards, well forwards, but that's backwards, iyswim. See too tired.

Will come back to the thread tomorrow, when I've put my brain back in!

Yes I am tired too!

I am thinking of trying to get the money for an ipad and download some apps to help if I can.

I agree that he is a visual learner, school on the other hand disagree (hey ho)

In the sense of when I am talking to him about something I am also doodling pics as I go. If I just talk then I have to repeat several times over what I have said but if I jot pics down he seems to get it straight off.

I am going to test him on something tomorrow. TV programmes etc. Funny how he can pick out Simpsons, Horrid Henry, Ben 10, Garfield etc from sky list?

I am going to see if he can write it down from memory and see what happens.

I am thinking with his reading and his writing if it works like some kid of flashcard process so he "pictures" the words instead of reads them. Ohhh its late and I am talking potty lol

see you all tom x

Morning Coff33

Not sure I am much more use this morning, blooming dog kept me up half the night.

I have done a little googling though and found an interesting blog about learning styles and helping children with different styles.Child 1st. It's a really interesting site with lots of tips addressing different learning problems. She is a right-brain visual learner herself, so really gets it.

Another thought I had for letter formation was whether Letterland might help, as each letter is displayed as part of a picture, rather than as just a symbol. I wondered if that might help with recall of the shape, eg the C is part of a cat's face, so each time he has to write a C, he just has to think of a cat looking at him? Not sure if they cover number formation though.

I found this article, on Visual Spatial Learners, really interesting.

Iirc, visual spatial learners do better learning whole words than via phonics and blending etc. I like this article about whole word learning.

Lots of visual spatial learning article links here. The 'Art of Writing' one is particularly worth a read and the one about pictorial note taking.

Fascinating stuff really, I think I could use some of the strategies with both my boys.

Thanks! I will try the mirror test pipin and see what happens :)

That child first link is really good moosemama been having a good read of that. DS struggles with phonics and I have always said he is a whole word reader. I do have him repeating words by typing them on my computer and they sink in that way rather than make him actually read his school book I draw out the main words from the book and away he goes.

Off to look at those other links now :)

Ds2 struggled with phonics, chunking and blending etc. His reading has really come on this year and I'm fairly sure it's because they have done all the basic phonic teaching and are concentrating on pace, flow and expression etc, so he's been allowed to learn and recognise words without the pressure of having to break them down and recognise individual sounds and letter combinations etc.

I vaguely remember the TA who was working with him in reception, after he came out of hospital, saying that she found he responded better to whole word and word shape recognition. I get so that the blooming government seem to think all children learn things in exactly the same way, there are so many different learning styles, so one-size-fits-all teaching strategies are always going to fail a proportion of the children. Some educators are fantastic (like the one who was helping ds2 in Reception) they realise this and differentiate accordingly, but so many just expect all children to 'just be able to do it'.

One of the later links said computer learning is much better for them in terms of producing written work, as they occupy both hands, so don't feel the need to fidget or fiddle as much and the letters on the keyboard are capitals, so they don't get directional confusion with letters like p and q and b and d. I can't believe I hadn't noticed that before.

Coff, ds has oculomotor defiencies type 2, basically tracking difficulties. He reverses some letters and numbers. Dx was given to him, by eye specialists.

Thanks Claw I think I am going to investigate the tracking possibilites again via a GP to see someone more proffessional just to rule it out.

The I think in picures link is DS to a tee. It explains how he struggles with writing from his head. (reason for him being excluded because he said he cant do it and wouldnt write)

^This difficulty is magnified if they then have to write the words down. Letters must be
placed in a particular sequence to spell words. Words must be placed in a particular
order to make sentences. Sentences must be linked together in order to make
paragraphs and paragraphs must be linked together to make essays and assignments.
It is understandable why most visual spatial learners that I see will tell me wonderful
stories in rich and graphic detail and yet won?t write them down.^

When we were talking about it he said to me I cant do it because I cant see the picture of the word.

Aha! ds is/was the same. When you think about it when you say or write cat, you can visualise a picture of a cat and can then link the word. But how about words like it or there for example, there is no picture!

We used things like PECS to help ds 'visualise' a sign or symbol for things, that dont create a picture.

I can see me plastering my extension walls in words lol. Original wallpaper methinks

Hunting around for cheaper versions of picture cards now though those usa ones were nearly $500 for the whole set. But will get them if nothing else around.

Coff, you saying that reminded me my whole house, used to be a sea of post it notes, stuck to household objects to help ds name them (difficulties with word finding and vocab) cheaper than wallpaper

Jolly phonics were also helpful, picture card and a little action that went along with it, to help ds remember. L is for lolly and we lick a lolly, while saying the l sound kind of thing.

Would flashcards where you associate the picture with the word help? Sorry, brain still running on empy today.

There are literally thousands of free online flashcards. I bet you could put together quite a comprehensive set just from googling.

These are supposed to be for ESL, but seem pretty comprehensive.

Literally hundreds of different cards available here.

Blog of a mother who has used flashcards to help her visual spatial learner son and advice on how to do it. Interestingly the child helps makes the cards, which helps the learning process.

More good advice on whole word learning and teaching tips for visual spatial learners.

This is about homeschooling with visual spatial learners and recommends some books about enabling different learning styles.

I like this powerpoint presentation, because it's about focussing on the strengths of the visual learner.

Oo er, I just had a lightbulb moment reading that last link.

It just hit me how much of this applies to ds1 as well as ds2. The only thing that doesn't fit is that I keep reading that VS learners are good at reading people, but I guess you can be a VS learner and have autism, which would explain that. His teachers keep telling me that he can create amazing stories, but not get them down on paper, that he can't construct a piece of writing, even though his knowledge of the topic/content is top notch, how he can work out really complicated stuff, get it all correct and then not be able to explain how he did it. He also used to draw diagrams or 100 individual dots in separate groups for his mathmatical jottings, then when they told him he had to do number jottings he stopped doing them completely and they've spent the last 3 years trying to get him to start again. Just everything listed in that powerpoint presentation range huge great bells for ds1 really.

I think I'm going to give his teacher the link and ask her to have a look at it and see what she thinks. (She's very open to new ideas and always keen to find new ways to help ds2 realise his potential.)

Coff33, what struck me about it in relation to your ds whilst reading that presentation was how it reflected what a lovely, bright boy he is. I'm always thinking what an amazing brain your ds has when I read your posts. He just needs the school to be bothered enough to work out the right ways of supporting him to realise his potential - very much like my ds1 really.

My ss2 is VS to a tee as well, and he is very sensitive to other people's feelings and needs etc, constantly, subtly watching for signs of approval/disapproval etc in the people around him.

I will have to come back and read all this again sometime soon, as it's not going in properly today. There are lots of lightbulb moments happening, but then two seconds later I've forgotten why the lightbulb went on. Doh!

The lady that did the powerpoint presentation also has an article published on the same subject - you can read it here. It's the third pdf on the list.