ABA: do you distinguish between 'bad' behaviour and behaviour resulting from ASD?

[appropriatelyemployed]

I was wondering with ABA, whether a distinction is made when addressing behaviour between behaviour which is just poor or non-compliant or which results from ASD?

I think it is impossible to distinguish with DS as his thought processes, view of the world, flawed reasoning and non-existent problem solving skills are usually what cause the trouble.

It is qualitatively different when DS2 (NT) wants to do something as firm boundaries and a desire to please usually do the trick.

DS1 however can be completely intransigent and utterly unreasonable and I don't feel he would be like this if he did not have ASD.

I was just interested to see whether ABA approaches this on the idea of the behaviour alone or whether it factors in the flawed reasoning etc to the solutions with motivators ets

I can (usually) tell with dd1 whether she is non-compliant due to being a 7 year old who wants ot wind up me/her sister/any passerby, or whether she is non-comliant due to ASD.

she is, after all, perfectly capable of 'just' being a 7 year old, and not wanting to walk/wait nicely in shops while I pay; not fiddle with things; not want ot help tidy up; etc.

if she is not just playing silly buggers (as small children are wont to do) then her non-compliance is usually down to one of three things:

not understanding what to do/what is expected
control and manipulation issues
fear/phobia (quite often, but not always, stemming form not understanding, or form inability ot control)

DS is so compliant and well-behaved usually that refusing to do something is quite a dramatic step.

But his general inclination is always to do his own thing and this is becoming more pronounced, so we are getting more battles about straightforward issues and we are then faced with a lack of reason which does not seem NT to me.

ABA always uses analysis to determine the function of behaviour (ABC data normally used) - without understanding the purpose of behaviour it is hard to find an effective way of addressing it.

So, in a way it doesn't matter whether 'inappropriate' behaviour is caused by the person or the condition (even if you can distinguish between the two).

I kind of think that 'non-compliant' (in a child with asd) is probably more bound to stem from the asd (and the reasons silver said: avoidance/understanding/motivation/attention etc).

So, yes ABA does (ime) factor this in - you have to tailor everything to the understanding/ability and particular characteristics of each child.

Both my ds (asd) and my dd (nt 2yo) can be bloody stubborn. But there is a subtle difference - dd will at 2yo accept that 'no' means 'no' in a way my ds cannot.

But I use the same approach with both of them.

And ds can be naughty too.

HTH

I dunno really. I think 'bad' behaviour is a social construct and subject to the rules of the social context which children with ASD can find difficult to learn in the way NT children do.

So 'bad' behaviour is our perception rather than innate and a result if poor functional analysis and teaching assuming the child is going to behave in the most rewarding way for them.

We all understand that as temping as it might be, there is usually less reward in swearing at our bosses than finding alternative strategies, but sometimes it is just really is worth it.

Well that is what is known as an MO (motivating operation).
All behaviour ('good' or 'bad') serves a function (ie has a reason).
ABA is about finding out what the reason is without making value judgements made on arbitrary socila constructs.

Thanks - this is really interesting.

I am waiting for the consultant's report and I have to say the reward system she has told me she is suggesting for managing DS walking out of the classroom is very fair but I was alarmed initially when she reported back.

She said that DS can use breaks and leaving the classroom as a way of avoiding work that he thinks is boring, does not see the point to. She said he was a very bright child but that he needs to be motivated to participate in all aspects of school life.

She didn't talk to him about why he left the class and, of course, because I was not aware that he was doing this, I was put on the backfoot, but, it did seem to me that she was suggesting 'poor' behaviour.

She has said since that she was not but that it is very difficult for school staff to manage a highly verbal child with ASD without expert support (of course it's super easy for parents !) so it is not a question of being 'naughty' but of changing undesirable behaviour which I wholeheartedly agree with.

But he walked out of the class today in annoyance because his work was 'too hard'. His TA went home 'sick' this afternoon too (don't want to read too much into that but I did have a chat to the head yesterday about supporting her - she is a teacher but I don't think she has any training in ASD and I think she is getting frustrated)

I wondered whether the TA/child relationship needed exploring rather than just trying to change everything about him. Often it is about the way things are done or said to him.

Avoidance isn't really poor behaviour. We all do it, but most of us NT have internalized some social regulation. I.e will worry what the teacher will think of us if we walk out, will she tell our parents, will they then be upset etc etc.

But there's really not a single one of us that hasn't developed clever avoidance strategies. The problem is though that it can be a barrier to learning,

And I think the brighter the child/adult, the better and more complicated the avoidance strategies can be, which can take some unpicking.

Thanks Star. I am just trying to get my head around it all. No one has been bothered to unpick his behaviours before or noticed his learning potential either.

She was talking about developing self-regulation strategies as he gets older.

It's always sad too that when anyone starts to talk about DS's 'behaviours' I instantly think it's short hand for not providing support as this is the way LAs deal with ASDs - it's not the ASD, it's bad behaviour.

Then I have to remind myself that this is a different model and nothing to do with LA crapness!

Yes. I never got anywhere trying to explain to a multi-agency team that ds' behaviour had deteriorated since being at nursery. They insisted he was well behaved and if I had problems I should go on a parenting course.

I didn't mean he was chucking chairs. I meant he wasn't listening as well as he was, that he no longer did as he was asked first time, that his stimming had increased but they didn't 'get' it, especially as these behaviours, whilst problem behaviours to DS, weren't problem behaviours to THEM. My attempt to explain was always met with the response 'but that's his ASD!'. Grrrrr

I hope you are able to make sense of it all to your satisfaction. I think you are doing the right thing in asking questions. There is just too much blind trust in the SEN world of 'professionals' and so much snake oil delivered privately and by the LA. ABA provision not exempt from this as you must know. I hope too that you can reconcile whatever is going on between the TA and your DS and ABA.

Once again, I'd recommend reading Motivation and Reinforcement which to date is one of the best books I have come across to explain the principles of Behaviour Analysis in a clear, ethical, warm and intellgent manner. It is essential reading for anyone interested in this field and easily digestible as each chapter can be read as a stand alone. Each chapter is also chunked and summarised every few pages.

23 chapters so one a night would be manageable. I read one last night which really blew my mind 'Control, Countercontrol and Challenging Behaviour' which was such an accurate summary of some children I have worked with. Very bright yet very elusive-kids who it is very hard to find reinforcers for and who often reject reinforcement that oyu know they seek.

It really challenges some current perception in the worls of ABA about functions of behaviour and Schramm is very clear nad honest about this.

My top read.

Hothead, i've dealt with tha in the past. I just ignore it and ask him to put his coat on. He can't put his coat on until his shoes are on, which he can't put on until his socks are on. At 5 mins before we are due to leave I open the door and step outside. He Knows he has to go to school and he 'knows' I care not whether he has his shoes, socks or coat on and that we are going NOW. It becomes HIS choice whether he wears those things and as such I have made no demands for him to challenge.

When we're safely out we chat about what happened.

In fact I only found out that getting dressed and undressed was a behavioural problem rather than an OT one when I was so illand lacking impatience I couldn't be faffed to change DS for bed one day. All my attempt previously to attempt these skills was met with tears, frustration and clearly displayed incompetence, so I was pretty much doing it all for his poor ragdoll body.

The night I decided he coukd just sleep in his tracksuit bottoms and t-shirt was the night I learned his sense of rules and order was a strong motivator. In less than 5 mins he was in his pjs. Back to front mind, due to lack of practice I expect but still...., I had been doing ABA for two years and still he had had me utterly fooled and desperate for OT involvement.

Ill and lacking patience.

oh, dd1 had the shoes/socks on/off phase for a looooong time too.

was purely about control and manipulation (she loved seeing the various responses, and even if I/dh did not react in anay way, then dd2 (then about 18 omnths old) would, or passersby (especially in the middle of winter!) would. dd1 loved seeing what people would say - all were different - would htey talk to her? to me? would they be surprised? shocked? laugh? be firm? so many variations, I can't blame her for wanting to see what reaction would happen.

no sensory issues at all - she wouldn't walk a step without shoes, and wouldn't put shoes on without socks - she loves shoes and socks, always has.

but still, we had months of shoes/socks off if we even dared to pause while out walking/in the supermarket/wherever. and guaranteed as soon as we pulled away in the car she would be triumphantly taking shoes/socks off.

oh the memories. I'd forgotten that phase...

oh, and I have had exactly the same experience as Starshit wrt suddenly acquired skills when it is clear I am not going to (or capable of doing) do it for her. dd1 miraculously learned how to undress herself in very similar circumstances...

Is the answer to that that it is all behavioural - whether the result of an ASD mind or NT mind, the response exhibited is the behavioural response?

I know what you mean. This was my concern too. But I think ABA works on understanding the child too so that you can motivate them.

I also think you have to pick your battles. I have given up on stuff if it doesn't affect him or us too much and got used to just having to be flexible because he will change about what he can put up with.

I think the idea is that you observe the behaviour to identify what is triggering the behaviour and identify motivators to change it

But the experts will put me right!