DS obsession with numbers driving me potty!

[Soutty]

Hi

DS is going through a phase of counting and adding and he is really hard to interrupt when he does this. He gets mesmerised by digital clocks, the timer on the microwave, washing machine you name it.

DH has not been helping tbh. I keep hearing him asking DS what's four plus four etc and then high fiving him when he gets things right. I blew my top at him the other day as I'm doing everything in my power to distract him and my stupid husband is joining in with his stimming and high fiving him for it.

Think I've got through to DH although he still thinks DS does this because he is good at it rather than because it's an autistic trait.

Don't know if anyone has any advice about how to limit this kind of stimming, at the moment I'm just trying to keep him engaged as much as possible and directing him to other activities. Advice on dealing with dozy husbands who leave all the hard work up to you and then breeze in and undo it all also welcome.

Hi Soutty,

My DS (5 - AS) is also obsessed with numbers and the digital clock thing. There have been numerous meltdowns if he somehow missed seeing the cooker clock turning to '8.00' (or 7.47 - his favourite plane...). I must admit, I haven't really thought of it as a stim, and instead am trying to use his love/obsession with numbers to his/my advantage. For example, I tell him that he can continue doing x activity until the clock turns 19.00 (or whatever) and then he needs to come upstairs to have a bath. He also has an analogue clock in his room, and when he finds it hard to settle at night (as is usually the case...) I tell him he can play with his cars etc until the clock says 9pm and then I'll come up and tuck him in.

Still trying to get my head round much of this, but I'm trying to focus on the positives. Hey - I've got a 5 year old who is genuinely good at numbers and can tell the time :o This helps keep things positive at school, too (who are great) as sometimes it would be so easy to dwell on the negatives, behavioural issues etc.

Ww xx

TBH it sounds quite a positive way to deal with the stimming. It's drawing him out of the isolating elements of it and turning it into a social interaction game, and he's learning from it.

Arguable whether you can actually limit stimming or whether it's worthwhile doing so when it really isn't something that's harming himself or others.

DS2 does this... has done it since he was 2yo actually, and he's 5yo now. I don't think I've ever really looked at it as a stim, but more of an obsession. It IS something that helped him cope with stress when he was younger - sometimes counting out loud while a loud noise was going on, to focus him on something less stressful to him. Or when we were washing his hair, we'd count out loud and it gave him something else to focus on so he coped with it slightly better.

I have to agree that turning it into a social interaction game seems a good way to handle it. You're most likely NOT going to be able to stop him from obsessing about numbers - the best bet is to make it work FOR you, instead of trying to fight against it. Look at other ways you can include it in daily activities or turn it into a game so he's learning more social interaction.

I would agree that trying to use the stim in a social way can be good (although sympathise entirely with being driven potty. dd1, when she gets obsessed drives me round the bend!)

could you try setting aside a time for your ds to stim? eg 'at 10 o' clock, we will talk about numbers/read digital clocks/set timers/whatever is appropriate for 20 minutes' and in that time, do as he wants - answr the questions, set the timers, devote your self to his interest too (trying ot make it social, amybe, as your dh has), and then countdown to finish, and let him know the next time he can do this?

initially, you would need to have frequent times for him to o this, but over time you could work on increasing the interval between the sessions?

it works with my (severe ASD with a lanuage disorder) when she is eg obsesing over what we are going to have for lunch/tea/tomorrow's breakfast and so on - I tell her a time when she can ask me (or tell her a time that I will not answer questions until), and it buys me some peace... (of course, to get to this point, she drove me mad when she was learning to tell the time - asking every 20 seconds (literally) throughout the day what the clock hands said. for about 2 months. I was very close to breakdown over that one. but now I can use it to my advantage )

It is good that he likes numbers and can tell the time but he has a very severe language disorder which means that he is very behind in terms of both his expressive and receptive language. When he gets into numbers he is almost impossible to engage and the more he time he is "allowed" to spend on numbers the less he wants to do anything else. To me, it is more important that he can learns what behind, next to and in front of mean than that he can tell you what 9-2 is.

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on DH, but we're doing VBA and my consultant has told me that it's a stim (it's the only one he has) and that I shouldn't let him do it for more than 5/10 minutes at a time before directing him to another activity unless it's at bedtime.

We don't have tutors, the consultant is training me to do it. I do what she tells me do and try to pass on what I can to DH. I also work 3 days a week. From my perspective, DH wasn't being very helpful but given the responses on here, perhaps what he was doing wasn't all that stupid after all.

I posted before I read Silverfrog's post (was interrupted halfway through writing my post with a request to mend a Thomas poster with sellotape) - yes, giving him specific times when he is allowed to count is a good idea. Maybe I should use a sand timer - that works well with computer time etc.

Is VBA another name for ABA?

Yes ABA does tend to consider stimming very wrong from what I understand. Certainly wouldn't want to contradict a consultant

An alternative way of looking at it is consider why he stims. Main reasons are 1) usually he is understimulated and finds the numbers stimulating or he's anxious and it's calming. Another theory (just a theory) is it's a similar reflex mechanism as tourettes, ie i can be controlled but comes out worse when the individual feel safe to relax (e.g. a relative had head nods in publis, if he controlled it he had to bang his head in private and got migraines doing it). I want to look for ways to replace what he's getting out of the stim with other things.

To me one of the main things I want for DS is for him to be able to interact with his surroundings and the people in it, for that to happen he needs to be calm. So for a stim to be turned into something social that to me is a good thing. If he's calm and happy enough to be interacting with your DH (inc high5s). Winner

If he's understimulated, your DH is stimulating his brain educationally and bringing him out of his stim. Winner too.

Having said that some stims you do have to just stop, DS stims by rubbing himself against things (he likes the pressure) not so good if it's a park bench....

It's the modern form of ABA, so rather than spending hours at a table you teach through play and the natural environment. Eg you might play simon says to teach me, you, his, hers - so you do easy ones like Simon says touch your nose and then bring some dolls in and chuck in some Simon says touch her toes, that kind of thing. Or to teach prepositions you just sit on the floor playing and say lets put the boy behind the chair. You play games to encourage eye contact like pausing a DVD and seeing how quickly he can look before you turn it back on or say look at me and you get a raspberry on your tummy on a tickle - it's about encouraging by making things fun rather than forcing children to do things. But yeah, the principles are very much the same as ABA.

When I know that he is tired I think it's fair enough to let him stim for a little while. If it's understimulation then I want him to stop doing it and play a game with me - but that's when we can end up having a big battle sometimes and as I only have 2 full days when I can teach him I find it really frustrating if he's too busy counting to want to do anything that will teach him something. I shouldn't get stressed about it but I do.

I wish we could edit posts - the main thing with DS is his language. At the moment the jury is out as to whether he has Specific Language Impairment (children who have this often display autistic traits but don't have autism) or a severe language disorder caused by autism. Whatever he eventually ends up being diagnosed with, he is very sociable, says hi to people when they come to the house and would always go running to Daddy and try to interact with him as soon as he comes in the door.

For me it's not so much that he is being solitary when he does this - because he often isn't - he wants to do it with someone else most of the time but the numbers just end up getting so big that they can't possibly have any meaning for him. Eg he always wants to double so 4 plus 4 = 8 becomes 8 plus 8 and 16 plus 16 and 32 plus 32 and on and on to infinity. I don't want to sit in a cafe with him demanding 600 plus 600 EQUALS? at me. I don't call that conversation. I do try to play games with him about which numbers are bigger and which numbers are smaller as that's about understanding concepts. He will engage with that but not remotely obsessively. That's why I think the thing with numbers is more of a stim than a genuine interest in maths iyswim.

hmmm, actually based on what you've just said I'm not sure then whether you'd really class the adding as a stim at all. What you said about digital clocks etc in your first post absolutely.

But, re-reading your post. It is changing. ie. when he gets the right answer DH is high fiving. It sounds much more like an obsession. It makes a change from the usual MN advice of leave the bastard, but honestly I would be doing what your DH is doing and trying to use his interest to develop his knowledge. He might not be ready to deal with abstract concepts such as bigger or smaller (from his perspective what do those words really mean?) 8 plus 8 etc is actually a lot more real to him.

You're absolutely right it is definitely not a conversation in the neurotypical sense of the word, it doesn't have the same backwards and forwards turn taking elements. But then try talking to any film buff, train enthusiast or world of warcraft player about there interest, it's really not so different .

In case you hadn't guessed I'm not a massive ABA fan.

Sorry when I said it's an abstract concept don't think I explained what I meant, and it's one of the big beefs I have with ABA.

Bigger and smaller relies on a child to understand what bigger and smaller the words mean. like all the prepositions and he she that you identified earlier, it's really hard to attach a meaning to the word, Even if you do manage to attach a meaning it's unlikely they will retain that meaning because they will probably never actually truly need the word.
e.g. do you want the bigger bowl of ice cream or the smaller?
child - "that one"

I feel for you!

My DS's new obsession is 'frakctail' a really obscure character in a Mario game. He spends his whole time watching a video on Youtube over and over. He has a wooden bendy snake which he spends his whole time bending and twisting while humming the theme music.

We have had better stims! Will wait it out until something else takes over. I am of the mind that if he isnt hurting himself or anyone else then its okay (like the headbanging or the squeezing himself in very small places).

We have space, lightening Mcqueen and thomas on rotate.... now thanks to DP we have Transformers too

The space was quite cool, we went to the science museum to see space rockets and nursery got all their space related books out and even laminated copies of a few pages for him to have.

Linar - why would that be one of your beefs with ABA?

I understand your post re: abstract concept of bigger/smaller, but I don't get why that owuld be a problem with ABA/VB

For me it's not so much that he is being solitary when he does this - because he often isn't - he wants to do it with someone else most of the time but the numbers just end up getting so big that they can't possibly have any meaning for him. Eg he always wants to double so 4 plus 4 = 8 becomes 8 plus 8 and 16 plus 16 and 32 plus 32 and on and on to infinity. I don't want to sit in a cafe with him demanding 600 plus 600 EQUALS? at me. I don't call that conversation. I do try to play games with him about which numbers are bigger and which numbers are smaller as that's about understanding concepts. He will engage with that but not remotely obsessively. That's why I think the thing with numbers is more of a stim than a genuine interest in maths iyswim.

I could have written this. DS (exactly 5yo, HFA) is just getting out of an obsessive phase of numbers. He is no maths genuis whatsoever, so I don't think it's anything to particularly encourage as a skill. Like your ds, it seems to be an obsession. I'm inclined to think it an obsession rather than stim too - in my ds's case it is often related to something being taught at school (eg the numbers/age thing was from the school topic of 'growth').

When he says or asks the same thing more than once we might answer him just once, and then say "ds I don't really want to talk about that anymore" and immediately distract with something else.

We do VB too btw, so I think this approach should be consistent with your programme. I agree with you, and generally think if an interest becomes a useless or pointless obsession it's not a good idea to reinforce it. Yes, great if you can channel it into something useful, but ime with my own ds, it doesn't work like that - it simply feeds the obsession (and we've had a few over the years: snails, lampposts, how high we can jump, and how old people are, which is still going).

Advice on dealing with dozy husbands who leave all the hard work up to you and then breeze in and undo it all also welcome.

Oooh and again, me too please!

Silver I agree. Lunar the example you gave of bigger/smaller bowls is a good example of how the concept would be taught in ABA! DS has learnt many prepostions through ABA/VB - as well as the meaning and application of more conceptual words like "when" "how" and "why".

Yep, bialystockandbloom and Lunar, a pointless obsession is exactly what it is!

Lunar, I guess we will have to agree to disagree re VBA/ABA. He is learning new things every day and he does understand bigger and smaller, tall and short, fat and thin. He knows that ten is bigger than five and a thousand is bigger than hundred. He quite likes playing that game for about 5 minutes in the car, just as he will play eye spy for a few minutes but he doesn't get obsessed about it.

Before I started VBA or even knew of its existence my instinct about the counting business was to ignore it and distract him with something else. I guess it's like everything to do with parenting - some people just know that co-sleeping is for them and others just know that it isn't. Horses for courses and all that.

Yes we are doing when, where, who, what and why questions too and his understanding gets better all the time. Children with receptive language disorders whether caused by autism or not are not just going to "get it" by being spoken to and encouraged. They have to be specifically taught language and that is exactly what VBA is about. That's why I will continue it even if DS is not diagnosed with autism.

Actually just thought, you could try using something with numbers as a reinforcer actually - as long as it was something meaningful and constructive rather than repetitive and meaningless.

What does your supervisor/consultant advise?

Lunar your last post just reminded me of two of ds's other major obsessions - toilets and traffic lights. One of our VB tutors took him to the Science Museum last summer. Guess what they had special displays of?