DS is 4 and the bullying has already started :-(

[skidd]

DS1 is under assessment for possible HFA/AS. He has been at pre-school for over a year now and has never settled in very well and has no friends. He also loves princesses and all things girlie, is extremely shy, and very passive.

So yesterday he told me (still amazed and delighted he actually told me) that some boys had been calling him names. I knew this might happen but they are all still so young - I'm shocked it has started so soon. I can't bear the thought that this may continue and get worse over the next 12 years and my beautiful quirky little boy is going to suffer at the hands of these little sh*ts just because he is a bit different.

Told the teacher this morning who was lovely and is going to 'sort it'. But is this just the beginning of years of the same? How do I deal with it? What can I do to stop it? I have even been fantasising about giving up my job and homeschooling him but I think I would be rubbish at it and is taking him out of the education system really the answer? From what I have read, even if he gets a dx, there's no way he will get into a special school because he is very HF. Any advice from more experienced MNetters much appreciated.

:( (((hugs)))

The right school should mean that bullying is minimised. DS has no friends (6.9years old) but has not been bullied at all. Unfortunately there can be something that all children can be bullied for, being too tall and having glasses as well as a flat face (half Japanese dad) were mine.

DS1 was bullied mercilessly at the first school he went to :( Before I pulled him out he was spending all lunch times hidden under the porta cabin so the bullies couldn't find him. In reception he thought the bullies were friendly and were playing with him, they pulled him across the school yard by his feet. He came home with his back bleeding with all the cuts from the gravel. But he was still convinced they must be friends as they had talked to him. They called him names until he left his name followed by 'fat', he is actually extremely skinny but he liked Henry VIII who is fat. Apparently the school 'couldn't do anything' as he wouldn't tell them about the bullying himself. Even though his one friend was telling them what was going on. I pulled him out from the school 4 years ago now and he still sometimes talks about it.
His new school on the other hand stamped on any bullying exceptionally quickly.

Thanks both, so sorry to hear about your DS LMG - so do you think it's really just down to the school then? The teacher was really good, she said, I know exactly who that is, he has been told before and I will sort it - she seemed pretty confident she would - I guess I'll wait and see what happens. I'm glad you found a better school for your DS

Ben10NeverAgain - sorry you were also bullied . I agree that there is always something to pick on (DS also has a squint, likes wearing pink, and has a very unusual way of moving so he is VERY easy prey ). I am so angry at those horrible little boys who think it's OK to taunt him - I have seen one of them hit another boy in the face iwth a big stick while his mother looked on and did nothing - I guess it is the mother I should really be angry at..

DS is 5 and not bullied at all. Mainly because he has great support from 1:1 (they happen to be ABA trained but same should apply to a TA). They make themselves like the Pied Piper doing such fun activities that children sulk if they don't get picked to be in DS small group that day.
We are open about his differences and this means school can be too.
Once children understand there is a reason and are shown how to help many of them are only too willing to do so esp at age 4 or 5.
DS has an army of girls who love holding his hand and dragging him along to make sure he is included.
We don't train the children to be mini therapists but inevitably, like siblings, when they see how an adult does it they pick it up.
There will always be children who are not interested in playing with DS, but a surprising number are really interested in him. Some it has to be said it borders on treating him like a pet.
I know this will not last - if DS does not close the gap these children will drift off in future years and he will be bullied, but I think now they just accept his quirks as part of him.
I have asked the ABA staff about what usually happens and they have said that where the children start off well at 4-5 then it tends to go ok through primary, but when children come in later on then its harder to integrate them into friendship groups etc. So its important to get it right from the start.
Whilst not defending the boys who are saying the unkind things - children at that age won't just understand why a child is different without it being explained. Most adults struggle to interact with my DS so I don't expect children to be able to without being shown how.
The school and any autism support teacher etc should be putting in a proper social skills programme, lots of small group work etc
DS does this right through the day.
They also make it fun. Many SALTs and TAs think a social skills group means sitting at a table like a lesson and practising conversation - but DS spends his time in the hall doing Simon Says, or Follow the Leader, or Whats the Time Mr Wolf or just getting the other children to be really silly and getting DS to copy them.
The fact that its made fun and like play is a major factor in why children want to be with DS, I know its the ABA staff who are the big hit really but DS benefits by association.
I don't think its enough to tell the children what not to do, the staff should also be demonstrating what they should be doing by joining in and leading the play themselves.

Ds is 8, bullying at his previous ms school was terrible (he was in reception class at the time) Like others as said, he did not recognise it as bullying until it became quite severe and marks were left on him, which the school then had to explain to me. Ds then began to tell me about how the marks came about.

He was bitten 3 times leaving teeth marks, he was poked in the face with a stick and in the ear causing them to bleed, he had constant grazes from being pushed to the ground, down the stairs, off of walls etc, he was strangled leaving marks like love bites on his neck. He had his lunch taken from him, it was a daily thing. He was called weirdo, freak, shitty pants, excluded in the playground, no one wanted to his partner during PE, no one wanted to sit next to him at lunch etc. I was told after each incident "dont worry, we will deal with it"

As soon as i labelled it as 'bullying' and asked school what help they planned to give ds, they denied that these incidents ever occured, despite them being the ones who told me about it in the first place! They then started to say it was all in ds's head and he was making it up and when i asked where the marks had come from "he must have made them himself" despite the school telling me he was strangled by another boy. I then stated that if this was the case, ds was obviously a very confused, vulnerable little boy and my question was the same "what help do you plan on giving him". At this point SENCO asked me not to contact the school again!!

Ds then began to scratch the skin all over his body off and pull out his eyelashes and ended up in hospital. You should take bullying very seriously.

1. I would record each incident in home/school book.

1. I would ask school not what they are going to do about it, but what help they plan to give your ds to prevent bullying from becoming an issue.

Ds is no longer bullied as such, but he has no friends and is taken advantage of.

Agnes - is your DS at a mainstream school? The support he has sounds amazing, but there is no way my DS would get that kind of support atm - no dx, well-behaved, doesn't cause trouble and doesn't appear to be distressed (that all comes out at home)

claw - your DS's school sounds apalling - I have read some of your posts about it before - really shocking. Is he still at the same school? If so, what changed?

claw - forgot to say, really good advice to ask the school what support they are going to give DS rather than asking how they will stop the bullying - will do that, thanks

No Skid i removed him from that school. He attends another ms school, with an ASD unit attached, although he doesnt qualify for the unit, as he doesnt have a statement. I thought that the staff there might have a better understanding of ASD because of the unit.

Compared to the other school they do have a better understanding ie half a days training in ASD. But he is no longer bullied to the same extent. At his old school, he received no help whatsoever, similar to you no dx at the time, well behaved, doesnt cause trouble etc, etc.

New school when he started he was given 20 hours of 1:1, SALT twice a week, social skill group twice a week, sensory and movement group twice a week, lunch club for children with SN's, learning mentor sessions.

Although now after tribunal for a statement, they have removed most of that help 20 hours of 1:1, SALT, learning mentor sessions and ds doesnt want to go lunch club. As without that help, he doesnt cause a problem for anyone but himself.

Skidd, one thing i learnt the hard way, no school likes to admit to having a bullying problem, they take it as critism and become defensive. If there are ways of achieving the same outcome and schools ego can remain intact, take that option!

I worry about my ds too (HFA at ms school). No problems at school so far (in Reception) but he has no real idea of how to distinguish between 'real' friends or not, and my biggest worry is bullying in the future, as he has a really sweet nature which combined with his social difficulties makes him so much more vulnerable.

What agnes says is the ideal, but sadly I don't know if TAs generally do work like that (ie like ABA tutors) - ime they seem to be there to firefight if necessary and to keep the child 'on track' academically - it's highly unlikely they have any training to address social interaction defecits specifically through play in the same way an ABA tutor does, and I don't think it's the norm that they'd even be involved in free playtime unless it's specifically written into a statement. And in any case if your ds doesn't have any TA support this won't arise. (Which might be a good thing in some cases as I someimtes think an unskilled TA velcroed to a child's side without doing the fun stuff agnes said would draw more negative attention to a child - esp if they're HF.)

I think all you can do is make sure the teacher does something about it in this instance, and if it ever happens again, even just once more, kick up a real storm about it. I know I will if it happens to my ds.

The only slight silver lining here is that it's great that your ds can recognise that what they were doing was horrid - if he can sense the difference (ie not think they are actually his friends and this is what normal friends do) that certainly stands him in good stead.

Also you can try teaching him to make sure he always tell a teacher there and then if something happens. And say very, very loudly something like "that's a horrible thing to say" or "stop it", so others can hear that the little shits bullies are up to something.

I think there was a thread a few months ago about bullying and how children could be taught to defend themselves, which had some useful advice.

Oh Claw your poor ds

I hope he's at least happier now.

claw - I'm glad you managed to find a better school for him although you must be so disappointed that they have taken away his 1:1 support - it makes me so angry that quiet, passive children who don;t run around hitting other children and breaking things just get ignored. Have you asked them reinstate the support? There is a school here with an autism unit attached which I thought of applying to for him but as we are not in catchment and he doesn't have a diagnosis I can't imagine he'd get a place.

bialy - yes I agree it is amazing that he was able to see that the bullying wasn't OK and that he told me - I am utterly astonished by this I have to say. I did ask him if they were being mean or joking and he looked a bit puzzled and said, 'I don't THINK they were joking' but then he told me what they said and I realised it was certainly not a joke

Good plan to see how the teacher deals with it this time, and then really kick up a stink if it happens again. I think the school is quite good about bullying but I have never had to test them before..

I have also said to him to tell them not to mean, and if they don't stop, tell a teacher. Good idea to tell him to say it loudly but tbh I can't really see him doing that - he is very quiet and shy and talks very softly (unless he's playing by himself at home and then he is unbearably loud!)

I'll have a look for the other thread, thanks

Bialy, thanks he is happier now the bullying isnt happening on such a grand scale as before. But like your ds, he has a really sweet nature and is very vulnerable. He would never hit back or retaliate in any way. He would never even ask them to stop or say anything. He would not report any incidents either.

He often gets confused and cannot explain incidents clearly, so others take advantage of that. They blame him for things and when asked to tell his side of the story, he cant. You would have thought teachers would pick up on this and it states it enough in expert reports (if only they read them), but he is often is accused of telling lies, so now he just doesnt bother and will even admit to things he hasnt done, as its easy to just say "yes i did" than explain the circumstances.

Although in schools defence, he can get confused about others actually being nasty and playing. For example he thought when people 'tackled' you when playing football, they were being horrible, but only because he doesnt understand the rules of football.

I also made the mistake of telling ds to 'stand up for himself' meaning he doesnt have to stand there and let them do it, to tell them to stop or tell a teacher. I had explained what i meant previously and thought i didnt have to explain it everytime i said it. He told his teacher that i told him to hit other children!!

Its so difficult isnt it.

Yes he is in mainstream (PT) but as part of a FT ABA programme so ABA staff go with him. As the school do not employ the ABA staff they get to take the lead on what they do. I mean they try and get him to join in with the same activities as the other children and he has to follow same routines etc - but they can also do small groups that are really for his benefit.
However the teacher is happy for this to happen - lets face it its 3 less children for her to keep an eye on and the activities are all educational. I am not sure how it will work further up the school when the curriculum is less play based.

I always feel guilty posting as I know we are much luckier than most, but I also think that its important for people to know what appropriate provision looks like. My DS is not mild ASD, he is moderate-severe and had zero social interest when we started. So the fact he is doing better than other children who are much more mildly affected / have more speech etc just shows its the teaching at fault, not the child.

But it all comes down to training. I asked the ABA consultant how long would it take to teach a TA to be able to teach a child social skills and he said it would take 2 weeks. Well no TA is going to get 2 weeks training on one thing.
But, I do think you can take ideas from ABA and apply them to TAs.
There is nothing to stop a school saying we are going to do fun games for social skills rather than a conversation group and run it everyday, not once a week. Esp where bullying is an issue. Why just read a book on bullying or talk about it at carpet time when you could be pairing children up with the child and playing chase (with a 'coach for the ASD child) to break down boundaries.
Schools need to take some responsibility for skilling themselves up too.
You can buy loads of books on teaching social skills. Doing it out of a book may not be as good as what my DS gets but its an awful lot better than what most children are getting now.

You can def say I want a proper social skills programme put in place to develop meaningful friendships and guard against bullying.

It's a truly awful feeling when your child is being bullied, isn't it? It often starts with name calling but can quickly move on to physical bullying. It is very important to get it stopped as soon as possible.

Perhaps it would be an idea to speak to the teacher and politely enquire how it went when she spoke to the children concerned? In any case, you should keep a written record of all incidents, along with dates of when you spoke to the teacher and what action was taken.

Good luck.

Skidd, If im entirely honest, i dont think he needs 20 hours of 1:1, well not from a non specialist TA anyhow. They were just being seen to do the right thing, iyswim before i went to Tribunal. They took away the support just before Tribunal, they used this to show that he COULD cope without the 1:1 at Tribunal. All the 1:1 was doing was literally sitting with ds, she had no idea of WHY or HOW she was supposed to be helping ds, so totally pointless. Same as the other help he gets really. I want specialist input, not an untrained TA. Unfortunately i didnt get this.

Is your ds likely to receive a dx?

:( so sorry the bullying has started already. If you're lucky, the teacher will be right on top of the issue and the other kids will quickly realise it's not acceptable. IME (DS1 certainly spectrum, no dx, and DS3, Aspergers dx), it is very variable from teacher to teacher/from school to school. Some will dismiss any claims of bullying, or blame the child for being "odd", "difficult to get on with" or whatever.

My advice is buy a note book, and write down details of this incident and any further ones that may happen. Write down the names of each child and the date, as much info as possible.

Phone or meet with school to discuss each incident, and note down who you spoke to and what the outcome was.

It is VERY helpful in situations where a bullied child may eventually lash out. This happened with both DS1 and DS3, both non-violent but pushed too far. Schools tend to forget/deny previous incidents, meetings or phone calls have even happened, but find that hard to do if you have a written log of everything! Phrases such as "Really? That sounds to me like you are trying to blame my child for being bullied, rather than tackle the behaviour of the bully", can come in very useful.

Hopefully it won't come to that, if the school is on the ball with it's anti-bullying policy....... for example do they have "safe places" for sn/vulnerable children to go during break times? At DS3 current school they have a retreat room (adult always present), and a named member of staff DS3 can go to if worried about anything. You could suggest something like that if you feel it's needed, if they don't do it already.

agnes - don't feel guilty - it is fantastic that your DS is getting some support and it's really useful to know what can be achieved and what actually helps. Could you give me any names of good books for teaching social skills? It would be great to feel I was doing something to help him rather than just worrying

steele - yes that's exactly what I'm worried about, today name-calling, tomorrow violence? I will definitely ask his teacher tomorrow what she has done - I am pretty sure she will tell me without being asked anyway, she is really nice

claw - there is a little boy in reception with autism and that is exactly what he gets - constant 1:1 support from a TA who just sits him on her knee and does little else - makes me really and for him, he is such a lovely boy, even if he does keep nicking my DS's wellies [grudge]

I really don't know if he'll get a dx, paed was pretty reluctant to go for a full assessment but we have convinced her and it is in July. My good friend who is also an autism researcher thinks he will get a dx of AS or PDD-NOS - his language is good and I think his imagination is OK - his main difficulties are with social interaction and transitions/routines

oldmum - thanks so much for your post, it was really helpful. Great advice to ask about a 'safe place' (AFAIK there isn't one) - I think that would really calm DS down when he is upset/anxious - he spent every second he could at his grandparents' house last week in the attic on his own - he LOVED it. He would wake up in the morning and his first wouds would be, can i go in the attic?' I think that is what he really likes, to be alone, away from all the noise and the people and the questions, just him and his princess dolls in his own little world

I will also keep a record of all incidents (just to add to keeping a diary plus a food diary....) it's a wonder I get any actual work done at work

Skid, i always thought my ds was ok with his imagination for example he could pretend a pencil was a sword etc. His difficulties are in shared imaginative play.

He cannot incorporate anyone elses ideas into his play. So he either just goes along totally with what i want to play, not adding any ideas of his into it or i have to go along with his ideas and not add any. If that makes sense!

I would also add it makes so much difference if the person assessing specialising in ASD. I spent years being told by developmental paed's he didnt have autism.

My DS - also 4 - is being bullied in reception. He is being bullied by a DC who he likes, but is on the treadmill to SA and doesn't realise what he is doing to my DS.
Definitely speak to the school - and put it in writing. All bullying has to be notified to the LEA, and no school wants to have to admit there is a problem, so you're more likely to see them coming up with solutions.
In our case, school intervention has benefited both sides. DC is given far better supervision at play times - almost amounting to 1-1 - so could be used as evidence of his support needs. My DS gets to play with him without any 'added extras' .
Nip it in the bud and remember that bullying doesn't have to be 'proved'. If your DS feels bullied, he is bullied. It is not for the school, or the bullies to say that they were not bullying as only the recipient can judge its affect.

Thanks both. Well nobody said anything to him yesterday so that is good. I didn't get a chance to talk to his teacher this morning as DS had a meltdown and so we barely made it on time

claw - yes I know from MN that an imagination impairment can be very subtle - I think he can incorporate the ideas of others (well his sister as he doesn't play with anyone else) into his games but I'm not completely sure. He certainly plays in a completely different way to his sister and his peers.

auntevil - so sorry your DS is also being bullied . I like your point about bullying not having to be proved. I think the intent is also important - one of the 'names' this boy called my DS was 'sausage' which sounds pretty inocuous but if he meant it maliciously then it doesn't really matter what the word is.

Skidd, thats good that no one said anything to him

The imaginative play is a tricky one isnt it. I didnt realise until it was pointed out to me by an expert, as i had always reported no problems in that area!

During the dx assessment that i observed the 'red flags' were ds choose lego to play with at the start and then didnt show any interest in anything else. The expert kept commenting to ds about how he himself was good at lego and ds didnt invite him to join in or even acknowledge what he said. Even though windows and door lego was available ds didnt use these to develop more meaningful play.

At the end dp and i were invited to join ds in his play, while the expert left the room and observed. Everytime dp took a piece of Lego, ds took it away from him. He was accepting of my joining in, he happily followed my ideas, but didnt add any ideas of his own.

I have also noticed that ds has no problem with turn taking or games with rules, which hides it eve more, its more pretend play or games without rules that he has a problem with.

Interesting that you say one of the words were 'sausage', ds gets upsets by this kind of thing as he takes it so literally, you cant call him by anything other than his name, not even 'darling' or 'sweetie', he will tell you my name is xxxxxx not darling! But thats not to say that the other children dont pick up on this and do it all the more.

Would also add that maybe approaching the shool and asking them to take a proactive approach ie ds is obviously very vulnerable,has difficult making and maintaining friendships is there anything we could do, kinda thing. Might be a better approach, than waiting for it to become a problem.

Does your ds receive any help at the moment for any of his difficulties?

claw, thanks for your reply - it has really made me think about my DS and imaginative play. DS would definitely behave like your DS in the assessment with the lego except that he would, I think, want to use the doors and windows. He is also good at turn taking which I agree may mask difficulties. He is not good at sharing but I think at school his passivity means this might not show (i.e. he would never make a fuss).

No he doesn't receive any help at school. He had two teachers and one has just left but they are/were both aware of his difficulties although I don't think either are/were very concerned - not to the extent that they would think extra support would be needed. As I said, he is so passive and well-behaved that he is probably the least of their worries! His teacher now is very gentle and caring towards him, and I feel like she really 'gets' him IYKWIM. For example when he has a toilet accident at school, she always lets him change into girls pants and trousers which I think is fantastic as I'm sure loads of teachers would be more, 'No you're a boy, wear boy's clothes.' She has also had a chat with the class about how it is fine for boys to wear pink after a child told him he must be a girl because he was wearing a pink top (which actually he was very pleased about!).

I think it's a great idea to ask for more support now though - he is struggling and in September he will start full days and it is much better to get the support in place before things get even more stressful for him.

thanks so much for your feedback - it is really helping me to focus on what he needs

Skidd, it is so easy for things to go unnoticed, another example of rigid imagination was when EP observed him in school. She observed "he appeared friendly and considerate towards his partner, allowing his partner to leaf through the assigned book in order to select a page to work on. Despite his seemingly cooperative behaviour it was evident that he did not want to work on the same page as his partner. Despite my suggesting that it would work best if they worked from the same page. He smiled, but politely declined"

So his partner does all the work and it looks like ds has had some input to the teacher!

Maybe you could ask the school to get EP in, to establish what his needs actually are?

Ds likes all things girly too, i wouldnt let him wear nail varnish to school, so he coloured them in with a red felt pen, while at school