MMR dilemma

[beabea81]

hi, i hope you don't mind me hopping over here from the disabled parents board, but i have a question about the mmr. lo is almost 13 months & i have such a dilemma about what to do. i don't know whether to get the single vaccines done instead as that is supposed to reduce side effects.

she reacted v badly to all previous baby jabs it was awful to see her so ill when she was so small. i have m.e & high white blood cell count & a weak immune system, i also reacted badly to jabs as a child & my consultant at the time advised me not to have the bcg for tb. so i'm concerned she may be sensetive to vaccinations because of me. i know they say the link to autism has been disproved but my cousin's little girl developed autism soon after her mmr.

i just wondered if anyone felt that the mmr had caused their children to get ill?

thanks x

No I don't believe that MMR and ASD are linked. To my mind it's co-incidental as ASD traits generally start to appear around 15-18mos. This is just my opinion, others may disagree.

If you are more concerned about the sensitivity issue, then talk to your GP about the separate vaccines. The trouble is there aren't too many places that do them, and they do cost. It's horrid that small people have to be vaccinated for so many illnesses and diseases but the alternative is so much worse IMO.

I have the same opinion as Sallybear, with regard to asd link.

When ds was having his jabs, i did insist on mercury free jabs (not sure whether the jabs still contain mercury) as i insisted upon the mercury free, injections had to be done in single doses anyhow.

Have you spoken to your HV/GP about your fears? Our HV was very helpful and suggested we look at "JABS" for information. The GP we had at the time (who said her own children had NOT had the MMR) was very helpful in suggesting someone who could do single jabs. In the end we decided against the MMR as I developed Stills Disease (arthritis) as a result of the rubella vaccine I had at 16. We didn't do separate vaccines either. Both my children have had measles with no lasting effects. They can decide for themselves whether to have the rubella vaccine when they are older.

The link between ASD and MMR has not been disproved

My DS went blind and developed ASD from his vaccination. (ie within 24 hours of getting his jab)

If your child seems to react badly to jabs I don't think you should give her any more.

(ie I think almost everyone should have jabs. But not if you've had previous bad reactions. )

All the evidence suggests there is no link between MMR and ASD.

My NT DD had a bad reaction to the first jab, so they did all the others at the hospital in a side room so they could monitor temps etc but she was fine.

Having worked overseas and seen children die of measles not vaccinating is not something I would ever risk.

leonie There is lots of evidence such as this

Autism is many things. I know plenty of children who did not develop autism via the MMR, and a few who had very strange reactions to the MMR (including trios to HDU and ICU) and who then lost skills. It wouldn't seem too bonkers to suggest the two might be linked for those children, and in some cases their paeds have agreed.

Quite a few children with autism seem to have immune system abnormalities. With your family history I think I'd want to be very certain. Have you been referred to an immunologist? Might be worth it - some don't even spout the party line. Or perhaps pay for a consultation with Richard Halvorsen? He might be able to advise or do some pre-tests??

Cochrane found that MMR safety trials were wholly inadequate so I'm not sure they're the best to quote.

It's not controversial to say that many children with autism seem to have immune system abnormalities btw - big area of autism research in the USA. And I have heard more than one researcher working in those fields state in conference presentations that vaccines might be involved in some cases. It never makes it to print obviously - far too political - but they'll certainly say it at conferences such as IMFAR.

Cream trees - what you cited does not at all prove there is no link. It only says 'unlikely to be associated'. Which does not mean ' never'

It definately does cause ASD sometimes. There is a few kids on this board (including mine) who regressed within 24 hours of a vaccination.

So, please be very careful how you word your posts. This topic is very upsetting to people like me.

Btw op I wouldn't necessarily worry about autism. - above that I'd worry about introducing live viruses (attenuated or not) into a chikd with a potentially compromised immune system. I do think given your family history and her reaction to the first jabs she needs further investigation before continuing with the regular vaccination programme - whether or not you remain concerned about autism.

Indigo I don't say never because I am a scientist and I never make claims that are unprovable. Nothing is ever completely certain in science, it is only ever the best evidence we have at this point in time. And at this point in time, IMO the evidence does not support a link.

I agree with perception. It differs from child to child. Some children like my ds3 was going to have autism no matter what, but for others there is a trigger, whether that be an immunisation or something else. From what I have read there is only 1 research paper that has proven a link and that was only for around 7% of autism cases, those of whom have autism connected to bowel issues. Many of the children I know do not have that type of autism, I do know a few children who's autism is affected by diet but many who diet has no affect.
Knowing a couple of children who have been badly affected by measles, both of whom was totally fine until they contracted it at 18-2yr, 1 is now both severely physically, mentally disabled and blind, I personally felt anything the immunisation could do was not that bad.
In the end it is up to you, as you little one has had a reaction before I would at the very least speak to the HV/GP and maybe delay them.

My children both have autism.

My eldest was clearly autistic from birth. My youngest did the classic regression thing - at mmr age - I would have been convinced that the mmr caused it

but

my children had the single vaccines because they were due the mmr at the time that the mmr=autism story broke.

Had they had it, particularly my youngest, who went from bubbly, babbling huggy, interactive chap to no eye contact and no interaction in the space of twenty four hours no doubt I would have been convinced it was the cause.

But since they didn't, clearly in their case it was something else. My guess is it's genetic in their case. Many members of my family have autistic traits, myself included.

If your child has reacted badly to vaccines, then I think the advice is to not have any more - I may be wrong on that. You should check it out.

The thing is, I think, there is no single cause of autism. Because autism isn't a single thing. It's a spectrum. It's a wide range of behaviours that have been lumped together. People can be affected to a greater or lesser extent.

There is no greater incidence of autism in those that have had the mmr than those that haven't.

But autism isn't one thing. Unless you identify the subgroups then looking at autism rates versus MMR is utterly meaningless. It's like saying asbestos doesn't cause cancer when you lump all cancers together rather than looking at lung cancer (for all I know asbestos might have a large enough effect to be detectable even with all cancers lumped together - but some carcinogens wil only have a noticeable effect if you identify different types of cancer).

leonie As far as I can tell, more people dismiss the link than belive it is there, but I'm not out to upset anyone so I am not going to post on this anymore.

People who dismiss the link outright also seem to believe autism is one thing. Which is bonkers. Identify the subgroups people.

And they look at huge groups/cohorts and say there is no link. Rather than looking individually at children who may or may not have been affected. This doesn't seem the most effective way of answering the question.

Bea - I'm going through the exact same thing with dd 13 mths but my worries are for different reasons.
When my ds was 1yrs I gladly skipped along to get the MMR - he didnt react within 24hrs or anything but within a week he was back at the GP for his first round of antibiotics, what then happened for the next 18mths was that he was on antibiotics at least once per month. It was like his system had been poisoned and is immune system was wiped out. It was also the beginning of all our issues with ds which then led to a dx of ASD. Prior to that he had hit all his milestones and was a contented little fella. I know the paper published about the links between MMR was discredited and the writers involved were punished (tbh it felt akin to a witch hunt for me) but recently the court of appeal has overturned one of the researchers punishment after he had been struck off and ruled he should be reinstated (although he has retired, he still fought this).
I am terrified of taking dd who is starting to talk and very sociable for this vaccine and the same thing happening. I know the consequences of measles etc but the finding of an "unlikely link" between autism and MMR isn't good enough. My dh and I are arguing about it has he says he would rather have dd alive with asd than dead from measles ......