Please can someone explain why pointing with the index finger is so essential?

[Duediligence]

Hello,

A few weeks ago someone posted a question about pointing. See www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/1420031-How-important-is-pointing-with-hand-not-finger-at-15-months. I imagine they were concerned about red flags for autism.

It sort of got to me. I can't seem to forget about it - because my DD doesn't really point with her index finger. My partner will say she does, but it doesn't really look like it to me. If anything, she only ever really uses it to point at things in books.

When gesturing towards something she likes, she will, like the other poster's son, use her hand mainly.

Is the most important part of pointing the joint attention/raising attention to something? This is what I understand the issue to be, which is why I can't understand why the index finger is so specifically important, and why it's on the MChat quiz thingie.

My DD gestures a lot towards what interests her. She's 17 months. She has a few words, but jargons tons, and I thought she understand a lot - but since I read that post, I feel like I've been scrutinising her so now I'm not sure. She's very lively, interactive, great eye contact, friendly, shows people things, gives other children toys, seems sociable. But is this enough to not be concerned? Should, for example, i be concerned she only has a few words? And can children learn to point with index finger later?

Thanks for reading.

It's not essential. What's important is that the child wants ti share an experience with another person.

Thanks for a prompt response Starlight. That's good to know (and as I thought/hoped).

I'm not sure tbh. Ds1 always used his whole hand to point, and shared things that interested him (such as planes - he'd hold his hand out towards the plane look at the plane and look at me), but he never pointed with his index finger. He does sometimes now (he's nearly 13) but often uses his middle finger. He used to show us stuff in books as well, and he still comes and fetches me to show me things. He's never had any problem with sharing interests.

A key thing for him though was that he also found it very very difficult to follow a point and still does. So he we said/say 'look' & point he really doesn't get it at all.

Thanks Saintly. I've assumed your son isn't NT?

I find it quite baffling, actually. I can't seem to find an explanation for why it is so important and even when i asked a SALT (who runs a group near me and I really like and respect) she said it was not important. Someone else I know who's worked with children on the spectrum for years also said she hadn't ever really heard of it as an issue - that the key is for them to realise they are separate from you and to share info/be shared with. Although again, Saintly, you've shown that isn't always the case.

My daughter follows a point and has done for months. She always looks where I point. And if I say, 'oh do you think there's a cat,' she'll know I'm talking about the garden and will swivel to that, so she seems to be responding to both a point and (repetitive) instructions/suggestions/directions etc.

I do find all the information out there on ASD quite an overload and challenging. It forces you to rethink what you feel and know and then leaves you confused!

Ds1 is severely autistic (non-verbal and nearly 13), but very sociable, friendly, affectionate and loves sharing his interests (lamp posts, trains, windows that are open.... ) so he's slightly unusual.

TBH if she's sharing attention AND able to follow a point I wouldn't worry too much. DS3 never really pointed much but could do everything else and is 7 now and NT (bonkers but NT).

I think of the index finger pointing as a red flag really, so it's not diagnostic, but if lacking signals something may be wrong. Whilst ds1 has always shared attention on his terms there's clearly something up with attention sharing because of his inability to follow a point (there were other signs of autism so he didn't imitate for example and couldn't until he was 8).

You know what, I can really relate to a love of open windows. We've just had our kitchen done and a huge window put in that opens so smoothly and it gives me a lot of joy to push it back and forth...

Thanks for sharing all that information Saintly. DD imitates all the time, and I don't see anything else that concerns me at the moment, although a few more words than her regular stable would be good, but I feel that will come and she jargons all the time - and she has more words than others of her age that we know.

To be honest Saintly, I don't want to worry at all let alone much but I am rapidly realising worry is part of motherhood so much is probably all I can hope for!

Oh absolutely. But red flags are just that, and just a suggestion to take a step back and see the bigger picture really. DS1 hasn't ever lined anything up in his life (much to his clinical psychologist's disgust ) but ds2 aged 2 made big long lines of cars. I thought 'uh oh' then realised as he pushed them he was making trains and playing at trains.

WRT to the window he positions us in one room then runs off to look at us through a different window (sometimes opening it to peer through if it's frosted glass). Mad child.

Yes, it's a problem I think with regards to the info about what being on the spectrum really means. As far as I can make out, there are loads of things NT kids do that kids on the spectrum do - but it's just the way in which they do them that differs, and which must become obvious over time. I don't know if that's far or right, but that's my observation of the material out there. You can end up scrutinising every stage of development - which is a total mind fuck - and a waste of precious time. Also, what I don't think is pointed out clearly enough is that (again from what I've gleaned) it's about a collection of signs, and never just the one. But again, so easy to get bogged down without looking at the big picture as you say.

Your son sounds like very good fun!

fair or right, not far or right!

I hawk watched ds2 and ds3 and tbh you can't tell when they're little.

DS1 is very funny. It's not much use to you in a wondering sort way but we have a blog (which needs updating) if you want an idea of what he's like.

Actually the website first signs has a useful video glossary which shows some of the red flags in action compared to typical development.

Thanks Saintly, will check out both blog and site.

Both girls were very very different as babies. Neither pointed and dd2 would drag you to get her needs met. Even now at 9 and 4 they can't follow a point
Now we know dd1 was clearly autistic but dd2 was clearer and had a working dx at 2

Ds2 (with ASD) never pointed, he would gesture with an outstretched hand, almost trying to reach and grasp the interesting object, but he wouldn't look back at me either. I don't think the actual index finger point is an issue, rather is the gesture being used as a point? Is she gesturing at something to show you it and share it with you?

As you say, one red flag is just that, one red flag and many NT DC will have one or more red flags. It's the consistency and quantity of flags that is the problem. In retrospect, as I knew nothing about autism when DS2 was small, he was pretty classically following many of the signs. I just thought he wasn't very needy and had speech delay like his (NT) brother.

Thanks again for more posts.

She doesn't drag me anywhere, she always gestures/reaches and then turns to me; constantly referencing me. So yes most definitely gesturing at something to show me and share with me - or to show me she wants. And she always follows a point - so I'm assuming, for the moment, we're on safe ground.