I feel so defeated and I don't know what to do next :(

[extremepie]

Ok, bit of a long one but here is the short(ish) version - I have posted this in AIBU but just wanted to see if I get any different responses here:

My DS1 was 5 in Feb, and is not in school. He was offered a school place at a school just under 2 miles from our house, despite there being 9 schools closer to us, one of them being just 500m from us.

We cannot send him to the school he has been offered.

He is currently attending the same pre-school as his brother who has just turned 4 but will not be able to return after easter as he is too old, meaning that after easter he will have no pre-school or school place and will just be sitting at home with us until a place at the closer school comes up (he is currently on the waiting list)

DS2 has autism so we have a TeamAroundFamily thing set up with social services to try and help us get them both into school (amongst other things) and they have assisted me in appealing for the closer school under rule 2 - special social or medical needs. We sent them a whole bunch of reports from our paediatrician, speech therapist, SENCO, just about everyone officially connected to our family, outlining our needs as a family for both DS's to attend this particular school. I also wrote a letter myself.

Got a letter yesterday saying that they had considered our information and decided that it doesn't sufficiently prove that the particular school we want fulfills our needs.

This basically now means that DS1 has no school place and will not get one in the forseeable future unless by some miracle enough children leave the school for him to be offered a place.

I don't know what to do now. I have honestly done everything I can think of and none of it is working. Want to bash my head against a brick wall!!

Any ideas? Help!

Someone told me on AIBU that I was entitled and seemed to think that society should give me an easy ride. Am I being unreasonable to feel fed up with this?

You want both boys at same school. NU
You want local school best equipped to help asd ds. NU

You haven't said why he can't go to the school 2 miles away?

Once your younger son starts, your older one should jump to the top of the waiting list - if the school has siblings admissions policy.

Some schools, particularly larger ones, have high turn over. So you may not be waiting very long.

Sorry, got a bit mixed up with what I had posted where!

Basically:

DS2 is still in a pushchair for his own safety. A long trip 4 times a day will be very stressful for everyone involved, not to mention potentially dangerous as DS2 can climb out of the pushchair. We are trying to get a special needs pushchair but it is taking a while.

We don't have a car and buses/taxis x4 a day are unaffordable for us.

DS2 has sleep issues which affect DS1 as they share a bedroom (2 bed house). Consequently DS1 is often very tired in the morning and I don't feel would be up to walking 2 miles to school and 2 miles home.

DS1 has already been to 2 different nurseries/pre-schools. I don't want to put him in the further away school temporarily, then move him on again.

I don't feel he will be able to make friends as easily in a school so far from where we live as many of the children will live closer to the school (although not necessarily!).

The further away school has a bad 'reputation' and a bad ofsted report.

There are probably other reasons why but I can't quite remember at the moment - we really want the closer school for DS2 because they have a speech and language unit which would be hugely beneficial for him and I really want them to go to the same school, at least until we can establish whether or not DS2 will need a special school!

Sorry if this sounds a bit brisk, I was trying to keep it short!

Hi extremepie,

"Got a letter yesterday saying that they had considered our information and decided that it doesn't sufficiently prove that the particular school we want fulfills our needs"

Did they go onto state why they rejected your application?.

Has anyone mentioned you applying for a statement from the LEA for DS2?. DS2 would not be able to access a special school or a language unit without a statement being in place.

You do not mention DLA; do you receive this in respect of DS2?.

TAF meetings are all very well and good but they can also be a lot of hot air.

From what you write it appears that DS2 has already seen or is under the care of people like a developmental paed and SALT.

I would certainly apply now to the LEA in question for a statement re DS2. The initial letter needs only to be brief. IPSEAs website is helpful if you are wondering what to write www.ipsea.org.uk. You do not need anyone's permission to apply for a statement.

If you have not done so already either I would also apply for DLA and speak to the National Autistic Society.

BTW I thought you got a real lack of understanding in AIBU and to my mind AIBU is to be avoided. You would have been better off posting such on this particular part of the forum in the first instance, this forum does get a lot of daily traffic even on the weekends.

That was all they said!

The only thing they added was that we can't appeal again unless we have a change of circumstances (which is unlikely in the near future).

We've been told that it would be better to wait until DS2 is in school before applying for a statement because at the moment he only attends pre-school 2 mornings a week - they have to pay someone to be there just for him as he needs 1-1, so they can't afford to have him any more than this.

We do receive DLA, there just always seems to be something that we need to spend it on - this month we have to use it to fix the garden as there is a big gap in the fence we need to put a gate in - we can't let DS2 out in the garden until it's fixed, otherwise he can run down the alleyway straight into the road!

The TAF meetings have been helpful but I suppose it's my own fault for getting my hopes up, they were all so positive that we had good reasons for wanting the close school that they were sure we'd be put to the top of the waiting list and now I'm disappointed again :(

Thank you by the way!

I realise that posting in AIBU is a little bit high-risk but I thought I'd get a lot of responses, which I did I guess just not all of them positive!

I honestly didn't think that there was anything I said that people could have an issue with but hey, you live and learn!

Glad I have reposted here, I think some of the people on here are in a bit better position to answer my questions :)

Hi extremepie,

They did not tell you exactly why it was rejected!. That is just wrong. Nice of them also NOT to tell you that you cannot appeal unless there is a change of circumstances.

Would you mind telling us what county you reside in?. I ask this only as some people may have experience of dealing with that county's various LEAs and could perhaps advise you further on things locally.

re your comment:-
"We've been told that it would be better to wait until DS2 is in school before applying for a statement because at the moment he only attends pre-school 2 mornings a week - they have to pay someone to be there just for him as he needs 1-1, so they can't afford to have him any more than this".

Who told you this piece of arrant nonsense?. Cos it is I am sorry to say.

I would still apply now even though he is in preschool 2 mornings a week. Does not matter, to my mind your son needs a statement up and running asap. Has the preschool also not applied for extra funding; they can do this. What plan currently is he on; he should be on Early Years Action Plus and with regularly drawn up Individual Education Plans (also known on here as Individual Empty Promise) with your input to boot.

Also statements can take six months minimum to set up (and often not without a fight) so them suggesting waiting till he is in school (with the associated subtext of him starting to potentially struggle with the social and educational aspects of school) before applying is really not a good idea at all.

Problem with TAF meetings and suchlike is that none of these agencies talk to each other so no-one knows outside of their own sphere how and why the other agencies work as they do. You and your family are thus being let down.

If you post this in education there's a couple of experts that can give you advice for appeals.

I don't think any of your reasons given would be considered a good reason by a panel because you've got to show why the school is best for ds1, not ds2. It makes sense on a logical level to want the school for ds1 that would suit ds2, but I don't think the panel can take that into consideration. I may be wrong on that, but that's my understanding.

The waiting to get a statement sounds like they don't want to do it and are grasping at straws.

OP, I'm sorry but I'm not surprised your reasons were rejected if I'm honest. That distance is considered walkable for a young child generally.

Your best bet though is to focus on the needs of your DS1. HIS social and medical needs (for which you'll need to get backing from a professional - could be social worker).

One of the reasons could be that you will regularly need to pull him out of school early in order to make ds2s after school appointments for example or that he will have to have an afternoon off once a week to rest/sleep (although there are other solutions such as having him in your room overnight or the lounge to sleep, and believe me, they will be found if necessary), so you need a school close by, or he is suffering some social and emotional difficulties which only the school(s) you want can address, and again you'll need evidence of something in their ofsted report perhaps that states this. And again you'll need professional backing.

You will not get anywhere from stating that the school you have been allocated is not good enough due to their ofsted report UNLESS one of the things they've been criticised for (unsympathetic to siblings of disabled children for example) is directly relevant to your case.

I do understand your pain. I'm currently trying to get dd into a state nursery near ds' special school under the sibling rule and I know I haven't got a chance really which is going to stuff up our childcare and cost us as I'll have to pay for a childminder to take her and pick her up etc.

Also, you might want to try the traditional approach and put in a FOI request to get the information on what basis all the other children got spaces in the other 9 schools, and see if you can find any mistakes that mean you should have got a place before someone else.

And btw, you've been lied to about applying for a statement.

If he will need one, you'll need to apply now to have any chance of getting one in a timely manner. Once you are in the school system all types of delays are triggered wheras it can go fairly smoothly before hand.

We are in the UK Attila :)

It was actually the pre-school themselves that told us that! I did think it sounded odd when they said it but I haven't done this before so I really don't have a clue how it works!

I do know what they have applied for extra funding already but apparently they were turned down - currently DS2 has been awarded 4 hours a week of funding. Which doesn't seem like much to me!

This is why I'm disappointed DeWe, I hadn't even considered re-appealing until they gave me the idea because they said that because DS2's issues affect the whole family they are relevent to DS1's application and therefore would be taken into account.

But apparently that was not the case!

I will definately get on and apply for a statement now though, thanks for the link I honestly didn't have a clue where to start with that!

I still maintain that generally speaking, pre-schools, schools, etc., are not necessarily being deliberately misleading when they advise parents. Some LAs seem to have more misinformed professionals than others though

Without being derogatory, most Early Years workers have very little experience of SEN of any significant proportion. Bearing in mind that in January 2011 there were only 9675 children aged under 5 years old with Statements in the entire country.

Only 0.6% of children in State Maintained Pre-school education have statements, and of all the children with Statements, only 0.1% are in these settings.

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't know what it's all about, but it does explain why they don't know what it's all about practically.

It means that only 6 children out of each 1000 children who go to State Maintained Pre-schools get a Statement.

DD1 went to preschool as a 'normal' child. I had thought she seemed 'hard work' but Health Visitors said she was 'fine'.

Once she was at pre-school, within 8 weeks they had approached me to say that DD1 was 'behind'. Long story short, she had global development delay, epilepsy, and a brain malformation.

She had 1:1 support at Pre-school, and they found her tough going even with that. Still I was told that we would 'see about whether a statement was needed' in March 2010. She was due to start school in September 2010.

I had been here on MN, and thought 'no chance'. So I applied myself in September 2009. All went smoothly, and she had her Statement in January 2010.

The preschool were following the guidance of the LA Inclusion Co-ordinator. It was she that had declared DD1 simply 'immature' in September 2008. Only the fact that DD was falling over without cause, accelerated our discovery of her issues.

DD1 now goes to Special School. Don't let anyone tell you what your DS's full needs are without first examining them.

are any of the other 9 nearer schools copable with? I do sympathise, that the prospect of a 8 mile round trip for all the school runs must feel nightmarish if you are having a tough time of it with DS2. Would it be too unaffordable to get a weekly/monthly bus season ticket if you do have to settle for the furthest school.

I agree with Star and others about putting in the statement application yourself ASAP, as it can take several months.

The only school in the area with places is the one we were offered so I'm not sure if there would be any point in trying any of those - we are already in a good position (3 I think) for the closest school so we would be in a worse position if we tried anywhere else!

Where have you applied for the SN pushchair? We went through DS2's OT and it was approved and received within two weeks at the most.

Extremepie - I would go to the primary education section on mumsnet and see if admission or prh47bridge are about to help you here - they are both very experienced in school appeals and will help you know what your rights are here re further appeal, reasons that will be listened to in an appeal and those that just won't make a jot of difference (even if they seem important to you).

Meanwhile can you consider home educating until you can sort out a place where it is acceptable for you?

I think thats what we're going to have to do for the time being - will check out home ed section for some more advice :)

Not read full thread but we have had a similar issue with getting our non SN child into a school that he needs to go to due to his brothers SN. It's tricky as the non SN children have no legal rights to any special treatment but the family situation can mean that it really is necessary. Good luck though with that and do apply for a statement now for your ds2.

Not read full thread but we have had a similar issue with getting our non SN child into a school that he needs to go to due to his brothers SN. It's tricky as the non SN children have no legal rights to any special treatment but the family situation can mean that it really is necessary. Good luck though with that and do apply for a statement now for your ds2.

Oops sorry for double posting.

Right. Ds2 has a formal diagnosis of autism, and extra help at pre-school. And it's not enough. You know that he will need a statement to get into unit provision, right? And you know that if early years don't cope, primary definitely won't. School is not like nursery. The normal staff:child ratios are 1:15 or 1:30 rather than 1:5. And they just phone you to pick them up if they can't/won't follow safety related instructions.

The reason they won't rush to statement is that a more compliant child can bumble along making no progress at all for a few years in the mainstream class, without costing much, just a bit of TA support and perhaps the unit teachers advising his teachers.

From a DS1 point of view, the genetics of being a sibling of an ASD child means he may very well have a few subtle speech and language issues (google broader phenotype, also pragmatic language) and so you could argue for a school that knows about ASD and will know what to look for. Of course, if a professional such as a SLT said that, it would carry more weight.

By the way, preschools can legally keep kids till they are quite old, and the reception curriculum is the same as the preschool one anyway (foundation stage/EYFS). AFAIK you keep the 15h/week vouchers till they are rising 6, i think a lot of private schools take them as part payment.

Have you asked for transport to the LEA's preferred school? 2 miles is a long walk for a young child with a disbability.

Have you asked the LEA to provide a home tutor while you wait for a statement and a suitable school place?

Have you applied for a statement? (This MUST be your prority - so far you have frankly been lied to ask siblings have no relevance to a statement allocation whatsoever or only kids would never get them!)

LEA's don't want to pay for anything if they can avoid it, so I've learnt to play on that a little sometimes