are school expecting too much of a 4 yr old, getting ed pych in

[mummywizz]

my DS 4 (5 in May) has a long term behaviour issue around other children. He is terribly impulsive and unpredictable he pushes them and hits them, although in my opinion this is getting better and he has started saying how he doesn't know why he does this and that it makes him so sad. He is wonderful at home bright as a button but it's just around other children there is a problem

The development paed (he was under their care because of late walking and speech delay) thought it was down to immaturity and speech delay and that he would grow out of it.

School now want to get an education psychologist involved but my DH and I think this is a bit early and don't want him stuck with some label. Also my son doesn't like this boy in his class (there are only 16) and there hav
e been scuffles I believe this boy also hits and pushes but as my son is bigger I think this other boy comes off worse.The other day his mother phoned me and started ranting that I should get DS moved to the other class to give her son a break, I got upset and tried to explain my sons long term history aplogised and told her we were working close to the school to address the problem she was very unsympathetic.
at football club yesterday (unfortunately this boy also goes) his father started ranting st DH that Ds had punched his son in the face (when I think he had just pushed him slightly (they were playing football) and 'how would he like to be punched in the face' he was very aggressive and threatening and now we feel we can't go back.

please help we now feel persecuted by these other parents and feel it's all going a bit over the top as HE IS ONLY 4!!!

Is this a private school? Are they expecting you to pay for the EP?

EPs don't dx or label children. They can't. All they do is suggest strategies which may help him cope better in school.

EPs in state schools are like gold dust. And you can be absolutely sure a state school wouldn't recommend it without very good reason.

I think there is too much unnecessary worrying about the whole labelling issue. If an educational psychologist has a look at your ds and maybe suggests a few tricks to help deal with it, that is not going to follow your ds through life and appear on his CV. And tbh even if there was a label:

a) who will care when he is an adult that he had problems at 4?

b) wouldn't that be better than the other boy developing a fear of school which he might never get over and having that follow him through life?

Schools will have seen lots of 4yos. And yes, EP time v limited so not a decision made lightly. Support for your child is a good thing. The school trying to find the best way of doing that is a good thing.

The other parents sound pretty aggressive themselves TBH

yes - I don't understand this fear of labelling. The school wants the EP to give some insight into a difficult situation.

I do feel for you, it must be very hard. But the school must feel they need the input.

Ahhh poor you. That must be very worrying. However, labels are rarely given even when a dx is clear cut tbh, more often begged and pleaded for by parents.

The school must be struggling to manage the situation and have called in some additional expertise. This should help your relationship with other boy's parents as you are seeking an explanation and strategies/support.

If there truly is nothing of concern, you should simply enjoy the luxury of having you child's development and behaviour for your own information, like a free health check type thing. The EP will also strengthen your stance of no issues if they find none.

Hth

EPs are like gold dust, you tell people you are 'working closely with the school' but are you? You've said you don't want to follow their recommendations of the EP having some input. I would suggest you go and talk to the school about what having an EP's input means so you can allay some of your fears. Sorry if that sounds a bit blunt, I do sympathise, having parents shouting at you is stressful

It's very hard to get an ed psyc in - many parents have to fight for months or years to get the school to agree that one is needed, so the fact that they're suggesting it would imply that the feel his behaviour is causing a serious problem. Please accept any help that is offered. If you don't want your son to be ostracised by the rest of the children, you need to get to the bottom of it and not bury your heads in the sand or put it down to his age or immaturity.

Starlight has put what I meant much more kindly and sensibly, sorry I'm in a grump today

thankyou for your advice My DH had concerns more than me tbh about the EP, and yes ANYTHING to help my son. I don't have any issues with the other child at all as he's only a little boy but it's his parents that are causing worry, and I'd hate to think this boy was scared of school because of my DS, we've stressed to the school to keep them apart
Yes it is a private school (perhaps my son is sticking out like a sore thumb as he seems to be in a small class of children that all conform into a nice little box of behaviour)

Private schools and EPs are very different to state schools and EPs.

They're not gold dust - they're free to the school so they recommend them according to whim.

Is there a chance this school will ask him to leave if his behaviour doesn't settle? Many, many private schools would.

I think being in a private school, which can ask you to leave at any time, put you in a fairly vulnerable situation here. You need to think very carefully how. You're going to play the game.

agree with cory and indigo. Ed psychs do not diagnose - it's normally only doctors (and in some circumstances clinical psychologists) who diagnose. The danger of avoiding professional help because of a fear of labelling is that as you have experienced already, sadly, other parents and adults form their own negative labels in any event.

Indigo CRIKES do you think this could happen, have a DD in yr 2 so would be absolutely horrendous if this happened. (although we both have an underlying fear of it, my DH didn't want me to buy a new school coat for DS 'incase')
Having a meeting with the school and Ep so yes hopefully fears allayed

Yes, it's a real possibility that he would be asked to leave, unfortunately. It happened to my friend's DD. Once you have other parents complaining, and maybe even threatening to withdraw their children, the school will be looking at getting rid of the perceived "problem child".

The problem my friend had was that she couldn't then get a place in a state school nearby. It was a horrible time - her daughter left the scho under a cloud, then had to start a new one where she didn't know anyone.

OP, it may not come to this, but you need to start looking at other options now.

Being asked to leave has to be a possibility, I'm afraid. Private schools are all very different of course and some have an exemplary attitude to inclusion. But ime, the typical private school is always looking at the bottom line.

I think I'd agree to the EP, but I'd gather a bit of evidence myself at the same time and present it to the EP. If you can, make an appointment to see the paed again before the EP visit and get their view. Then you can discuss the whole history and the latest medical opinion and that gives a lot more background to what the EP is observing in school. Your worst case would be the EP giving bad advice based on not having all the facts.

Part of your problem, I think, is that private schools tend (whether by selective entry or self-selection by the kind of parents that send their kids there) to have pupils who are more emotionally mature than the average state school. In DD2's private school they were sitting down at tables and writing essays in Reception. And DD2 was getting in trouble for not writing 3 pages like the girl next to her. This is not because the girl next to her is G&T, particularly, it's because the class as a whole have higher ability to take instruction and sit quietly and concentrate than the average kid of that age. So that's what the school expects and demands. Children who are less mature for their age really stick out and ime get penalised a bit for something that is not really their fault. One of the kids in DD2's class (Y1 now) is having quite a rough time with handwriting and homework and stuff - but she is the youngest kid in the class and she is just finding it all hard. She's plenty bright enough to do what they are asking her, but she finds the slog of it depressing. So one of the things I'd be trying to get the EP to assess is - how far is this actually normal for a kid who is one of the younger ones in the class and also quite young for his age? And how far is it something more than that? Saying that he is different to his peer group isn't helpful because his peer group are atypical.

Thankyou r3 your message has been sooo helpfull and I agree totally with what you've said you've given us lots of good advice to take to the Ep

DS3 (5 at end of July) in reception year, very mixed ability/background city primary. 60 in the year - all september intake, some without any previous educational setting, some already IEP/SA+ and statemented
Only 1 child by this point in the year still has on-going issues with pushing/shoving. There will always be a few who sometimes struggle to control themselves - dealt with under the schools behaviour policies. If the school feel the need to involve EP, they must feel that his behaviour is above and beyond that which they are able to manage.
Working with the EP and school is a positive step towards understanding why your DS is struggling with his relationships with other children. At this early age, they may be able to help develop strategies to help him cope and settle with his peers.
If you did look into moving to alternative schools - would his difficulties still follow him, and would the next school be pro-active enough to help?
Lots to think about