NHS salt: "Lanfuage dor Rhinking" programme is of no value

[oodlesofdoodles]

DS has recently been assigned a new Salt. I've been going on and on at the salt dept asking for something, anything, eg language for thinking for ds or Hanen Talkability for ua.

The salt went to assess ds at pre school last week and reported that he's doing fine, he just needs ro work on non verbal communication (i had put that in one of my emails to salt dept) and collaborative play. (You don't say lady!) No actual recommendations of how to go about this.

She tested ds on Language for Thinking and decreed that he doesn't need it. We have the manual at home and ds can scrape through the first column, might gwt some of the second column and is a long way off third column questions.

To cap it all she accosted me outside school in front of another parent. I'm not keen to have ds's shortcomings advertised like this.

So this is really a question for moondog, is there ant value in Language for Thinking.

(also a but of a rant)

Thanks everyone.
Digbert, we do try to do that but its often inappropriate to talk about people in front of them and/or real life moves so quickly that ds can't keep up with what's happening.
The salt said that we should only be doing that sort of thing in RL, that there's no benefit to giving ds plenty of time to ponder a static scene.

Ps digbert, do you mean column 1 is appropriate for a normal 5 yo or for one that's been referred to salt?

'The salt said that we should only be doing that sort of thing in RL, that there's no benefit to giving ds plenty of time to ponder a static scene.'

I disagree very strongly with this.
Of course all communication goals should be used and developd in real life and should always be functional.

That does not mean however that there is no value in practicing/extending skills in a way that allows time to think things throguh.

If you follow this argument to its logical end, you could then come quite logically to the conclusion that there is no point in the profession of s/lt if all that an s/lt does is to tell you to practice 'this sort of thing' in RL.

Thanks Moondog. Can I plagiarise some of your post in my next email to salt dept?

Actually, first I'll just ask for assessment like you said.

I'll do it !

It's like saying that a professional singer must never sing outside of performances as there is no point, or an athlete practicing outside of competition.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble or denigrate a noble profession.
Falling out with people rarely does anything but bring more hassle and stress to all parties. Equally, quoting a random nutter online who purports to be an s/lt (I am an s/lt and can assure you I am not a nutter but nevertheless...) isn't going to go down well.

Ask for an assessment, ask for the scores and ask on what grounds she doesn't advocate practicing a skill.

Just spotted this. I'm a 1:1 TA who uses LFT with my charge. He's very HF, age 11 and he still has trouble with column 3, the level C questions! Have a go at one of the assessments and you'll probably be starting off with the first column only, level A. Always start with picture and you reading the text. Once they are scoring consistently highly you can move on to the next stage of picture and him reading the text, the last stage is no picture and him reading the text. So unless your DS can read really well, you should always be using the picture.

At age 5 you may get on to the level B questions if he's particularly astute, in which case ask the level A question first, then along the row to the level B question, then down to the next level A. I can't imagine that a 5 yo would cope with the level C questions, but who knows, the assessment should tell you.

I have found it a really good system, it covers so many potential real life situations and has been a great discussion opener. My own DS used it at school with his TA.

I'm approaching the end of it now and it's taken about 2 years at roughly once a school week to get through it. My charge started at level C, picture and me reading the text and we have only recently dropped using the picture. After 2 years you could go back through it from the start but at a higher level, maybe level C without them feeling they remembered it too well.

Good to hear your thoughts EJ!

It is really good, though, isn't it, once you've got your head around it! I'm still finding it useful after 2 years.

Yes, isn't it just?

I wasn't planning to quote you moondog, just plonk your questions in my letter. I've just asked for the assessment at this stage.

Ellenjane yes we try column 1, then if he can answer that, try column 2 and if he manages that (very rare) try column 3 question. Clearly that's too much. We were also reading it every night at one point.

How long do you spend on a story Ellenjane?

About 20 minutes, oodles. Sometimes longer if it sparks off a discussion, but never more than 1/2 an hour or so. He is 11, was 9 when we started, so has more staying power to concentrate than a younger child. It's different in a school setting, though, we have specific time slots so can't be as flexible as you can at home. I think once or twice a week would be about right. The lad I work with is a very good reader, but his comprehension is miles behind his reading. He gets really stumped by the 'What's the same about a burger and a sandwich?' type questions, but can answer the concrete earlier ones really well.

Anyone got a copy they are not using? (I am happy to pay price and postage of course), Have looked on amazon and ebay, and there dont seem to be any in stock anywhere.... and it looks just what was being recommended at last review.
(ds is reading the words in stories, and can remember what words say, or pictures show, but not why things might be happening.) eg greedy goat story, where goat ate lots of things then couldnt fit back thru gate, he could list what goat ate, but couldn't say why goat wouldn't fit thru gate....

sorry don't mean to highjack.

Try here www.winslow-cat.com/language-for-thinking.html They are usually very competitively priced.

Yes, that's a great price-it's what I paid for mine.Amazon used to stock but when i went to look the other day they didn't anymore. £40 for well over a year's focussed language intervention that any reasonablt intelligent person coudl carry out.
Absolute bargain.

Winslow Press is a great company. You might find other useful thnigs there too.

Yep, they have the cheapest Hanen books around, I'm forever recommending them from Winslow.

Fab, thanks guys! (knew you knowledgeable ladies would point me in the right direction).

Go for it sign. Hope my sorry tale illustrates how not to use it...

We will resume once I've got the assessment.

To go right back to your OP though oodles, I think SALT services are beyond stretched where we are. Our last 'interventions' involved me having a quick chat with my (extremely helpful normally) SALT, she then sent me a bunch of photocopies to go through with DS followed by a phone call a month later to 'check everything was ok and could she now discharge him'

I know of a child younger than my DS who is very similar to how DS was who is getting nothing, we had a weekly group 2 years ago. When our other SALT went off on long term sick she wasn't replaced, etc etc. Just saying that it's not just about the appropriateness of the resource, it's also whether you're getting what DS needs from the service.

Ooh, tempted. Was a bit shafted by doing hanen myself though cos slt then said DS was fine. I wonder if my baseline assessment counts for anything...

(rhetorical, obviously I know mum not acknowledged wrt sen provision- we really must get some sort of certificate of 'registered provider of home supplementary education by parent specialist in asd' status organised)

oh maria I like it

Mrs Signandsmile, Reg provider; HSEbP (ASD specialism).

Wilson, but I'd have thought that if the service is stretched then its even more important that they train people up to use manuals like LfT. Even before that salt went off on long term sick we/ds's teachers weren't offered any training in a standard easy to use curriculum.

I also think its important to complain about poor salt services because the medics who run the NHS will cut such services to the bone if they can.

No absolutely, I meant complain

Ok will do Wilson when my current complaint gets an answer I'll see what Mrs Salt comes back with first.