Once again questioning myself - DS and ADHD

[JumpAndShout]

Ds is 7 now, and I have been wondering about this forever - more about the hyperactivity than attention aspects. He was always far, far livelier than his brother (10), and much more hard work. I still don't know whether I am just over-worrying, and he is just a bad fit with the rest of us in the family, or if in fact, there is more to his behaviour than normal.

He CAN concentrate (lego, TV, drawing), he is mostly fine at school (some outbursts, and general fidgeting, but school have always said he is normal, albeit young for his age). He can sit still for an hour church service when required. He is very emotional, but a good sleeper. Very, very hrad to calm down if over tired/over-excited.

However, he was asked to leave football club because he couldn't stop mucking about, he is the only one in his swimming class who is permanently jumping up and down and so not listening at all. We still can't go out for a meal without it being totally stressful as he won't stay still for more than 5 mins. Friends don't like having him around becuase he sometimes just rampages around. When he has friends over, he gets really silly, and really wild.

However, it is home, with us that he is at his worst. He has days where he justs tears about, deliberately antagonising DS1 and us. Trashing things, jumping off furniture, kicking walls. He is impossible to calm when like this. No amount of talking (or shouting!) helps. The only thing to do is put him in his room to calm down (we have to lock it) - he then trashes his room, and the ensuing calmness only lasts a short time.

Recently, he has taken to being really rude - shouting random words over people when they talk, plus running off. He really is finding it very hard to stay in control of himself. There have been no triggers or changes that I can think of that have caused this escalation.

I always make sure we have time together every day, just the two of us. If he is calm, this is lovely and he seems 'normal'. if he is being mad, then it doesn't help. Getting him outside is fine and he is easier when being physically active, but surely by now he should be able to cope with being indoors and not being able to run about?

So, what do you think? I have assumed that because school are not concerned, there is no point in seeking help. However, I am finding that he is not getting better as he gets older as I had hoped. I think he works so hard at school to stay calm, that he just can't contain himself outside that. The holidays have been a nightmare and I am exhausted...

Wow, I think you have my 7yo DS, & there's little doubt in my mind that he's "on the ADHD spectrum".

Problems: I don't have an official diagnosis & don't think it would help to get one, he's obviously not that severe, most people don't even talk about ADHD as a spectrum condition & insist it's one or the other (ADHD that needs support & a diagnosis or simple obvious bad parenting). No middle ground or shades of gray.

It helps me that I have 3 other DC close in age who are SO DIFFERENT. Who don't present with "behaviour problems" like DS7.

You know it's a controversial condition. I can't answer your quandary, only share it to some extent :). We have other males in the family who were a bit or a lot like DS as children, and they "settled" down quite well in the end.

Can your DS foresee consequences, follow narrative? DS7 struggles to follow stories or see how one action leads to another to another and then to another.

lljkk - thanks for your solidarity! I guess I am unwilling to go down the diagnosis route too - I am not sure it would be helpful.
What I would like though are strategies that might work with DS, to keep him at least managable...
I think he seeks sensory stimulation, hence all the running and jumping and bouncing, kicking stuff. Any ideas??
DS can understand and predict things in stories and can be very empathetic and caring, but refuses to listen in real life and will just not do as he is asked, even when he knows and dislikes the consequences

Jigsaw puzzles.
Arts & Crafts sets.
One to one time.
Getting Out of the house (I realise you know most/all of this).
Exercise.
one to one eyeball contact when trying to coax him into something, also getting him to repeat back to me what I said & what will happen.
Tolerance.
Finding things fun to do together (especially with his dad)
Routine (much as I loathe it).
Recognising triggers: eg., DS kicks off most when anxious, and underneath his rambunctiousness he's actually quite anxious about many things. So tackling his worst behaviour with sympathy/problem solving approach and not authoritarian strictness (this has been very hard for me to learn to do, and wins you no fans among onlookers, but otoh, Sod the Critics, because being sympathetic actually works best to improve things).
Extrinsic rewards (chocolates, stars and house points, this is how his teachers manage)
Managing expectations to keep them realistic (I hate this part of parenting, but always essential)

I highly recommend The Explosive Child book, btw, it's about coping strategies & not diagnoses. Am not expert, just coping one day at a time.

Yes solidarity is nice! :).

We wanted to go the diagnosis route simply because DS2 has a number of issues, and we wanted to find out what things we could do to help him. Part of his problems involve coordination and hypermobility, and we wanted OT input. We've been told he has ASD(HF), ADHD, DCD, hypermobility, and sensory problems.

I'm puzzled about the school not being concerned though. How is his schoolwork? Is he working up to par with the rest of the class? If he is having outbursts, even if not frequently, they still should be looking into it. I would discuss it with the Senco, if only from a "he seems to be using all his energy to function in school and then fall apart afterwards - are there ways we can help him in school so he is not struggling so much to cope during the day?"

DS2 isn't able to understand and predict things in stories much at all, and sequencing is difficult for him as well. He is going a mile a minute right now after being wiped out by chicken pox, now the energy is back and he just dosn't know what to do with it. So he's driving DS3 crazy, who is now coming down with the chicken pox as he bouncing all over the house. He is definitely a sensory seeker. He does do things like laptop and DS for longer periods of time (30 minutes or more) but he is constantly shifting positions (and screens) all over the place, so he never actually sits still IYSWIM.

Best of luck, it is definitely wearing...

Wow lljkk - those are all the things I do, pretty much!
DS hates eye contact when being coaxed though, so I allow him to listen, while not looking at me. Otherwsie, he won't look, and I don't get to say what I need to.
It is amazing how I do these things/tactics too. Sounds like our DS's are two peas in a pod. DS really loves doing stuff with DH. It is a fine line though, as if DH doesn't pitch it right, it goes to hell in a handcart and everything gets worse as DH isn't as intuitive about DS as I have trained myself to be.
I totally agree that DS is anxious about a lot of things despite outward (over) confidence. His anxiety, or excitement, or anger at himself always translate to mad behaviour...
I also agree that being authoritarian just makes things worse, even though I suspect other people think that DS just needs stricter parenting (and I am strict - I have to be, just in a calm way and only with the important stuff)
This is so helpful to know that someone else has the same, and is doing to same things .

Triggles - DS is average at school, doesn't get any extra help, but is not where his brother was at the same stage/age. He isn't as interested in learning so far, and while he is bright enough, he finds it frustrating when he can't understand/achieve things. There are other children in the class who need more support than him educationally and behaviourally, and his teacher has learned to leave him be on the odd occasion he kicks off (ie leave him hiding under the table). He did hit out a bit in reception, but we have never been called in, which has amazed me given his behaviour at home.
DS went to stay with my sister just before Christmas. She has had him before and been fine. This time though, she said he was very hard to deal with (she has 2 children 12 and 14) and I get the impression she won't offer to have him again. I suppose this feels like a wake up call - he is usually ok/on best behaviour for her, but obviously couldn't manage it.
I'm still not sure if it is ADHD though - although I like the idea of it being a spectrum -and tbh, I'm not sure school would have much to offer, as he is not causing them particular problems and is keeping up ok.
I agree it is very wearing though!
Oh, what to do!

I would think if he is hiding under the table at school and such, that they would consider that an issue. Just because there are other children who need MORE support doesn't mean that he doesn't need support as well. Just a thought.

Tiggles - like I said, I am surprised school haven't done/said anything. I think it is because most of the time he is fine. It is just when he does 'go' - like if he is told off - then they have decided to ignore his behaviour to give him time/space to calm down. I can only assume he doesn't give them the full force, and that it doesn't happen very often. I think because he CAN focus/do as he is told/interact normally then that is what they see, and they sort of assume the other stuff is out of character. On days when he has got into trouble at school, I know he has held it all in, and then let rip once he is out of the school gates .

DS was on the SEN register with behaviour improvement targets for 6 months in y2, following a single bad incident & nothing quite like it recurring. I am sure being on SENR helped him, but I can't say that I would expect a lot or that I'm entirely convinced that anything "special" they did is to credit for improvements seen; SEN Register's a paperwork exercise as much as anything. Presumably having a formal statement is different because the LEA is compelled legally to provide so much time + types of attention long term? My impression of local (Norfolk) SEN provision is that they have undergone severe budget cuts & will provide only the bare minimum, anyway.

Occasional outbursts from "Normal" children is normal, even predictable ones within manageable boundaries like JAS is describing; I think the SENR gets reserved for severe cases.

How was your twin separated at birth DS going back to school this morning, JAS? DS battled with his shoes, his coat, me, his siblings. All somewhat Hellish but by DS standards not that Hellish, I am just so used to it now, and it really helps if I just don't get emotional & just take this stuff in stride. Distraction worked, in the end, as it often does.

I think something to keep in mind is that your DS is just 7yo right now. As he gets older and school gets more difficult socially and schoolwork more complicated, you may see his behaviour deteriorating somewhat. If he's just barely getting through the day now, it may stretch him to his limits as it gets more difficult. Hopefully, obviously, he will cope alright, but it's something to watch out for.

We've been told that DS2 will most likely struggle more as he gets older in school due to this.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being "quite easy" and 10 being "quite stressful, involved and long-winded" how did you find the statementing process, Triggles? It seems like most MNers would put down 9-10, but maybe I've got wrong impression.

let's see.... keeping in mind that I completed all his DLA paperwork immediately before the statementing paperwork (actually at one point had them both sitting on my desk, reasonably certain they were taunting me )..

and also noting that I had an unbelievably cooperative and proactive senco and school personnel working with me... which does help...

I would say it would be accurate to scale it in 2 parts... overall, the process was more time consuming than complicated... waiting for the EP and report, waiting for the initial request to go through, waiting for the paperwork to complete, waiting for the completed paperwork to be approved, waiting for everything to be finalised. It's nerve wracking. And they initially were going to give DS2 only 15 hours, and our senco went through the roof, contacted them and had them communicate more with the paed, and they then gave him more hours. He is just short a few hours of FT, but the school covers the extra couple hours, as (in their words) "he needs it, so we'll make sure it's there for him." So I would say that part of it (all the waiting and stressing) is probably a 5-6. It might have been higher scaled if the school wasn't already providing support for DS2 and we had to struggle, but they provided FT 1:1 for him long before the statement was completed (they applied to another agency for a grant to cover funding to pay for the extra 1:1 hours).

As far as the paperwork is concerned, I would say 8-9. Probably more so because we had a lot going on, my father was very ill (and then passed away), DH's depression, money issues, on top of just struggling through filling out all the DLA paperwork. On it's own, without all the other stuff added in, I would have been more likely to score it a 6-7. I'm not horribly fond of paperwork. And let's face it, once it is done, it's done.... the worst part is over.

It can take a minimum of 6 months from start to finish (ours took from October to June), so that's also something to keep in mind. But good to have IMO.