i just don't know if ds is SN or not :(

[saladsandwich]

i had ds's parent consultation with nursery (he is 3 tomorrow) i left feeling so happy, he is behind but they reckon when his speech catches up then he'll be right up there, i thought excellent, there was a few minor things, ds copying excessively, he does shove alittle but so do other kids and he only plays alongside other kids not with them.

the last 2 days have been tough, ds has done nothing but take his socks off because of the seams then want them back on after he's picked fluff from each toe its mad to watch him pass each toe along, when i try undress him he says ouch so dressing/undressing is becoming a battle, he is doing nothing but cry over things he sees as broken, chocolate pieces not being equally square leads to him being heart broken, today i bought him a bun and the icing had been pressed in a little by the bag and he sobbed and sobbed.

he as been talking today but every so often he will keep repeating the same line from a film over and over again, he was crying before bed because i went to read a different book...

he has another developmental paed appointment in january but i just don't know what they'll make of him, last time they said speech was holding him back but his speech is coming but it doesnt explain him crying over things like he does...

sorry its abit long, its been a long day of crying over broken/not perfect things and "not in my town you don't" - the quote ds keeps repeating!!! oh and cereal the boy keeps asking for cereal!!! x

it's hard some days, isn't it... it sounds like there are a few 'markers' that you've spotted, and you know him and all his needs so well that it's hard to resist analysing even just a teeny bit :) Focus on his strengths - as you are doing, and as the nursery seem to be doing a fantastic job you're in good hands. Labels are one thing - but the bottom line is that you know precisely what your little guy needs and can meet it all, recognise the awesome job you're doing. Three is fairly early to distinguish between what is going to be a difficulty and what isn't, tbh. One child who's NT had a few quirks at 3 whilst ds1, AS, didn't. Investigating, and diagnosing anything at 3 can be a bit of a minefield imho. If you've got developmental paeds / psychs on the case, you will be fine, and honestly they more than likely will know 'what to make of him'. There are some fab folk out there. As a parent, we're far too close to see some things clearly iyswim, although you are totally the expert on your own child. Don't know if that makes sense, but good luck from me, and hang in there :)

May I suggest you start a diary of these things for pead appointment, it's helps it be very clear about your ds difficulties. He is still very young, and so some of this could be age, but it may not.
The speech you describe about the repeating is classed as echolalia, which is a normal language development stage but within certain ages, I'm not sure when it's meant to stop.
He sounds like my dd2 at that age, but hers impacted in everyday and still does. She had a dx of autism at 3, but had loads of other signs aswell as some of the stuff you listed.
I'm sure others will be along in the morning to offer more help and advice.
I always say, go with your gut, you know him best

well said, Lisa. Diary notes worked for us, too :)

thanks for the replies

i'm going to start a diary, i did it once but i just felt so negative... it hit me today in the cafe how quirky he can be, i bought him a dinner, he ate most of it, almost an hour later i put his dinner on the trolley for mucky plates and he had a mass break down, he wanted his dinner back, raided the dirty plates, i grabbed him and ushered him away but he just kept on and on.

then he cried at tellitubies because of the sun with a face on it, cried at oconauts because it had a different ship on it, (big and round), he cries at anything big and round, he is absolutely petrified of the hahoos on in the night garden, he is 3 surely he shouldnt be like this?

but on another spin, a friend came back to mine today with their ds and ds stood at the side of him playing with something, normally ds likes to be on his own but he likes this boy and for some reason tolerates him better than other children, he looked like a normal 3 year old, his new quote of today "pretty music" or as ds would say "kiggy guzzik" his pronuncition is far from perfect but 6 months ago i thought he was never going to talk so its real progress, i do worry that SALT have discharged him and he is to be re referred at 4 and half grrrrr his language is that of a just turned 2 year old :(

Yep a diary and list of what you think of symptoms is defo the way to go!! Our Geneticist thinks we are great because we always do this for him beofre we meet...also saves the "Now tell me from the beginning" Which i hate...I should write a book and just hand it over in MDT meetings lol!!!

well, if i get to town im gonna buy a proper little filo fax diary to store all the stuff in, might post any odd behaviour he does on here though till i can get my hands on a proper diary, ten i can just refer back to it.

today i took ds to a pantomime... not a good idea, he cried until it started then refused to look at the stage he looked really confused and just hugged me tight very very subdued so we left as soon as we could.

its interesting reading threads on here, sometimes things i read on here my ds does but i havent noticed it as anything.... like the constant licking of people. it goes through me when he does it especially if he licks material and when he has his hat on it must cover his ears, he hates getting dressed especially the t shirt bit, he says ouch as you take it off.

i see him and the way he plays and they way he needs me more than the average 3 year old, he will sit and lean towards a toy then ask me to get it then wont back down i end up having to take his hand to the toy.

Even after dx I get days where it hits me like a train, mainly with dd2.

apart from the ex-inlaws everyone else is noticing things arent quite right with ds. imo with the help hes had he should be catching up hes in nursery 15hrs, he started off doing 5hrs from 22months progressed to 15 at 2 and 4 months, hes been to playgroups from 6 week old.

might sound random but could i have caused this by something i've done? i look back and think maybe i'm doing this wrong or i could have spent more time with him.

tonight hes spent an hour bouncing on the bed running riot, hes finally dropped but hes been up since 7 and will wake through the night i'm exhausted

Please take me very seriously when I say none of this is your fault! You will drive yourself mad if you even consider that.
Best thing you can do is fight for dx and early intervention.
I have 2 girls with Asd, dd1 didn't get any help till she was 5 years old. Dd2 was dx at 3 but we knew she was autistic by 2 years. She's has had massive early support since 2, and even though she's lower functioning than her sister she is doing so much better.

sounds weird but it cross my mind that for each month id been depressed maybe it affected him and put him so far behind... i do send myself crazy with it tbh.

it worries me that ds walking down the street looks like his other little friends until he doesnt reply to people, or he pulls his trousers down in the street or he lays on the floor and wont get up or be picked up.

i have mixed feelings about the appointment with the community paed in january, i know ds will not co operate now, in strange situations you can see he is terrified

ds's oddity of the day.... claiming a seat and table as his in KFC, because we have sat there a few times he refuses to sit in any other seat .... had issues with the dinner too, will only have pop corn chicken, chips and beans with purple fruit shoot he eats the beans with a spoon (cant be a fork spoon) and half the chips and the other half and the chicken i have to take home and he eats cold as soon as we get in.

at his grandmas she gave him some sweets and they where half a packet (dont let him have whole packs) he deemed them broken, no shit i had to cellotape the top together after a major meltdown and he ate them from opposite end.

tonight he as point blank refused to go to sleep, im losing the battle with him i really am, he really really gets me down with the sleep, he was exhausted but nooo he wont go to sleep.

he as been quite good walking today tough cant fault him there x

something else for the diary when i open it up (christmas present to self) ds dislikes photos, dislikes leaving the house, he said ouch as i tried taking a photo today.

also something else, his birthday last week he said "dye dud doo" < i love you for the first time to me. i was full of pride, but i realise it was because of all the presents so that makes me alittle sad i dont know if this has any relevance, he didnt do proper kisses till about 4months ago before that he use to rest his head into your head

his favourite toy of the day is his toy garage and cars2 cars, hes not very well though bless him

apologise to anyone reaing this, just me rambling to myself :) xx

I'm reading with interest because I also think my DS is not NT. I prepared a list of all the things I had noticed that had bothered me, hadn't kept a diary as I hadn't thought of that, but my list extended to a full A4 page with tight margins. And I added to it on the reverse between the appointments with the GP and the developmental paed we saw this month. I don't know which things are relevant and which are not - many could be quirky-yet-ordinary things that most toddlers do, but I put them down anyway.

Your comment about your DS and proper kisses rang a bell saladsandwich - my DS did the same until fairly recently. I would say "Kiss kiss" and a little cheek would be inclined graciously for me to kiss him. He has yet to say "I love you" though. Even for presents.

Hope your DS is feeling better soon, salad

noodles i just dont know with ds, deep down i know he is not NT... i think if ds had a few things he was quirky with but he gets worse and worse... i was going to stop posting tonight, bought myself a diary but i will keep posting if people are reading, the kising thing forgot he went from rubbing heads together to then kissing hands then more recently kissing lips but it is a kiss where he rests his mouth on you, if i ask for a kiss i'll get a "no" or a tooth kiss :).

today i tried getting him some shoes, refused to get his feet measured so popped him on the machine, he refused to have any shoe in the shop, decided he liked his old ones. bought him a coat, let him pick his own but he wants the old one. he then lost a sticker he was given and he went on and on he just does not forget anything ever. had a cry over his sandwiches because i did 2 not 4, he considers this to be broken because it doesnt make a square, he's funny with foods but not because of taste, if i do introduce anything new he either loves it but wants it religiously for that meal everyday or he wont even look at it.

he slapped me in the face because he was told off, he has spat on my dads floor repeatedly, bounced on his settees repeatedly because he wanted to "dance", hes obsessed with disney cars atm, specifically mack the truck and guido.

some positives though!!!!!!!!!! ds loves jigsaws, shapes and colours, he knows all colours, can usually tell you the difference in light/dark, give him a jigsaw with a car and he can do it himself, he can tell you basic shapes, he as a good understanding of some things but very poor with others at the moment he is very into labelling things, he likes names wants to know every cars name

wow long post tonight!!!!!!!!! just got the scamp to sleep, took him up at 8pm, i dont know how he can keep himself entertained in the dark for so long!.

forgot one last thing, i bought him a little playmobil ramp with 2 racing cars to it trying to get him to play with figures but hes not really interested, we have heaps of playmobil thinking the figures would help, he just cries when the pieces arent to the right bit ect... well he took the tyres off the little cars today and lined them up, one on each step. he is obsessed with taking tyres off cars, taking things to bits, he is constantly doing it

Ooooh yes the tooth kiss, mine does that too. Their little quirks are all so different but sometimes eerily similar (not that I'm jumping to any conclusions). But it is as you say, you know deep down that there's something not usual. It has been a very gradual dawning for me that some things my DS does are not typical, but toddlers are chock-full of bizarre behaviour at the best of times and when you aren't experienced with them it can take longer to realise. My DS touches the light clusters on all parked cars we pass, saying "Light - light - there's the light". His verbal ability is not good for his age and he repeats a lot of what I say. Most of what he says is repeating what others have said. He doesn't ask for a biscuit in the usual sense (e.g. Biscuit please), he says "Do you want a bistik?" - taking your part in the dialogue. He doesn't converse. He doesn't answer questions (or ask them). Like your DS, he is very very good at some things and um, really rubbish at others.

Do you know why has your DS been discharged by the SALT? Do keep posting with updates, we are still reading (Well, I am anyway...)

Sorry Salad, but that list of things he is good at sounds very familiar. My DS2 was also good at colour names, jigsaws, shapes, numbers. At his special nursery he used to describe the threading beads as cylinders, spheres, etc. They are all very concrete concepts, very visual, mathematical and typically are a strength in the spiky profiles of DC with ASD.

It does suggest that his underlying IQ is fine, though!

noodles hes been discharge because the SALT department here are having a big change or something... im lucky ds's nursery are doing a great job with him. he is into asking "what name" but he is only doing it to feed his obsession with the cars, he will ask the name of it repeatedly... if he asks for a drink, biscuit ect he will just say "dink" or "distits" he just says the single word if that makes sense.

ellen i feel ds is fine intellectually, he takes things apart, looks after things so well, he is so observant.

a few more things with ds, he likes his dinner cold, refuses to eat warm food but in a group setting at nursery he follows the masses and eats things he doesnt like? he hates any foods where stuff is mixed like casseroles.

he keeps saying ouch if i take his clothes off, take photos stuff that dont hurt? bedtimes are the worstt thing at the minute, its so hard when he refuses point blank to go to sleep!!!

salad, the depression is not what CAUSED his problems, it's much more likely to be FROM you knowing deep down that he was likely to need extra help.

And now that you know you can make a list of his difficulties and take action to help him overcome them, the depression won't need to be there.

Getting a diagnosis (or not) is a whole other question; hang around on here for support, and get a long list of problems to bring to your community paed appointment. And then let him/her to worry about it for a few months; if you get a good paediatrician then it's ok to let them get on with their job of deciding whether a diagnosis is needed, and if so which one might fit best.

Hi salad your son sounds quite similar to mine apart from the crying thing. I also took him to pantomime the other day which was a nightmare as he has short attention span so within 20 mins was climbing on the seats and annoying everyone so we left after 40 mins of being there! He has significant language and speech delay but he sounds similar to your son as he copies a lot that he sees, for example when watching a film he acts out the scenes and copying certain words and actions. Not sure if this is unusual behaviour or not? He is also being assessed by a paed and they seem to be taking their time to diagnose him with anything, presumably because it's just not clear cut yet what is wrong with him. Ds does have quirky behaviour at times but I often wonder if all this together with his short attention span etc is all connected to his speech delay and that once he catches up it will get better.

Salad, meant to ask you - what is his eye contact and attention span like?

Hi salad

Firstly, i've not really had time to read the whole thread and i'm certainly not a professional, but I just wanted to say that regardless of the outcome, I completely sympathise and understand where you're coming from regarding your ds's recent behaviour. The repetative speach I find particuarly irratating and I sometimes really snap at my dd to stop saying the same line "SKY-Believe in better!" for example. I've spoken to a lot of mums on here who have managed to block it out. My dd is 5 and it can still drive me completely insane at times. What I would say though is that some of her quirks which I used to find annoying and even frightening at times, I now see as individual, special and even inspiring. For example, her attention to detail used to really quite unnerve me, but I now see it as an amazing talent which I just can't relate to. At 5, she can draw things that I can't even now at my age. I'm not saying they're the neatest drawings, but the detail is amazing!

Although you should definitely keep a log of all your concerns for your pead appointment, try also to see his traits as potential positives for the furture. It all just needs pushing in the right direction. That's the key.

sorry, meant paed, not "pead"

And irritating not "irratating". I'm sure there's a load more so i'll stop now

hi, hes been very difficult today, hes become possesive over a certain fruit juice bottle today, even a new one the same wouldnt do, hes biting his nails down to nothing, he's thrown things at me, a cafe he likes was shut today, i dint even think he'd realise with his routine being out but he did. major 45minute tantrum over that, hes seems calmer for it though now.

sleepy his attention span is non exsistent tbh, it took nursery 6 months to get him to sit down on the carpet with the rest of the children , but occasionally something will captivate him, usually cars or building stuff of some sort. his eye contact he is fine from far away, if i call his name he looks over but if im talking to him close up he generally tries not to look directly at my eyes... just asked him to tell me what colour my eyes are and he looked and said blue but it was almost like he was looking to one side of my eyes not in them?

just been drawing pictures with him, he is only just turned 3 so doesnt have great control of the crayon yet but he colours everything in the right colours, hes just copied some trees from the gruffalo book and he did 2 brown trunks and green at the top a long line for a snake... so proud of him, he then copied another picture with the fox on and dd the same for the trees but did 4, i dont know if hes advanced, below or on par with that but it was a better than a christmas present moment for me. then he lined up all the crayons and ran his hand back an forth over them, i asked him why he was doing it, he just said "hant them in big line" he can talk when he wants to, i presumed his quirks would get better with speech but they haven't.

i dont know if this is a denial thing but i seem to swing from thinking ds is just abit behind to there is something wrong. he was at the childrens hospital for medical matters and the consultants there asked if he always displayed a certain mannerism (curled up in a ball refusing to look up).... but then nursery make me feel like he is just a little boy who is slightly behind.

im finding this quite therapeutic (sp?) dont get much chance to talk to anyone really X