RE: Drinking orange coloured water while at Kindergarten??

[Bagpipes]

Hello everyone - How would you feel, if you had been told a couple of days later, that your son or daughter had drunk 3 glasses of orange coloured water at kindergarten?? Apparently it was put out for water play - not for drinking, but my son will try to drink anything regardless of colour. I was told - that my son had been told not to drink it, but as soon as a teacher moved away, he ' chose to drink it' ( He is 4yrs old and is Down Sydrome) WHY didn't they try and encourage him to do something else - NO they left him there infront of the water trough!! The reason I know this now, is he was being observed by our psychologist - who told me today "I didn't intervene - just wanted to see what he would do" UMMMMM well, when he got home from kindy that day wow he was in the worst mood I have seen him in such a long time. I was not a happy mum !!!!!!

WHY OH WHY DID THE PSYCHOLOGIST SYAND BY AND LET HIM KEEP DOING IT! i KID OF UNDERSTAND THE 'JUST WANTED TO SEE IF HE'D ACTUALLY DO IT ' ETC.... BIT LIKE ME IN mCdONALDS 'ALLOWING' DS2 TO KEEP HIS HAPPY MEAL BOX ON HIS HEAD...'JUST TO SEE IF HE WAS AWARE THAT PEOPLE WERE LOOKING AT HIM'
But..... surely once he'd done it once and went to do it again (actually i think just 1 sip was enough) then the point o intervene was obvious- O.k i accept that not EVERY child is sensitive to colurings etc.... but whenever i have a child round our house (on the rare occaision i must add!) I stick to 'safe' drinks and snacks' just in case'- now out of my 3 boys i have to be honest the only one that seems affected by for example cola is NT(??!??) ds3- the other 2 are how they are all the time and i've never been able to 'track' back to what they eat or drink- food has always been too much of a sensory issue for them so i have to be honest 'restricting' food/drinks was never an ideal for me- that said i do go out of my way now to specifically buy things which advertise 'for kids' etc.... however just because foods 'natural' doesn't always mean it's safe either...eg cucumber was found to be a friend's son's worst 'trigger'!
Oooops....off on another of my tangents!!!!

Back to you.... I really can't understand why they couldn't just leave it as plain old water....i DO understand why they 'thought' it would 'stimulate' the children- but i don't think they thought it through and certainly I hope they had no IDEA that it would become a 'stimulant'

bagpipes I can't beleive your post surely they should have still been supervising him as normal whilst the ed pysch was there????? and as for the ed pysch - is she on another planet??!!?? so not much help I would be mad!!

I'm coming at this from a different point of view- firstly a psychologist will not intervene, because they need to know what your child will do of his own accord, not what he is made to do by someone else...he is not a member of the nursery staff, so not there to look after your child.

Secondly- had you given the nursery specific instructions not to let him drink anything other than water, or a list of food colourings he is known to be sensitive to? Is he allowed to drink squash, etc? I suspect that the water was coloured with food colouring, and so safe to drink, even if it is not absolutely advisable.

Are you SURE that the bad mood was due to the drink, not something else that had happened that day?

I'm not meaning to be crtical, but maybe there is another side to the story?

What? He's not there to be observed , he's there to be cared for. He's not a bloody circus exhibit, or psychological experiment. He's a young child. My son "chooses" to drink bath water, I "choose" to not let him. He also "chooses" to eat gluten containing cakes, I don't let him becuase it makes him ill. I think you need to let them know that this is not on. if they are unable to supervise him properly then they need extra staff (is this possible in NZ?)

Hang on a minute- i missed the bit about you being told this a couple of days later..... that is typical! It's 'significant enough' for the psych to make notes of it and observe- yet not for us to be told- on the day it happened you must have been 'examining' everything YOU did to work ot why he was so moody- when all along- even if they had just in passing said something like 'you'll never guess what he did today' etc....then the alarm bells would have been triggered and you would have felt differently and maybe handled the moodiness in a different way???

My greatest irritation at the moment with DS2 at school is the lack of feedback i get- i know he's 1 of 35 in a class- but how am i supposed to 'handle' his problems at school if all i get from him is "i had 2 warnings today" I have specifically asked that they send a note home- they do it if the child bumps their head- yet they 'don't want to make mountains out of molehills'.Because i do believe DS2 when he says he is trying hard to behave- I am thinking of a 'behaviour book' so taht if alls well they can indicate this with a smiley face- and if there was any 'significant' incedent that they draw a 'neutral' face- then if DS2 starts on about 'finding it hard to behave' i can see by looking at his book whether this is simply his perception or reality- i can then choose to talk to the teacher- she will often say the 'event' was trivial- but my gut feeling is that to DS2-who i'm sure will eventually get the AS dx- anything less than perfect is wrong- and i therefore spend alot of my time alon the lines of explaining'it's not fair/or life's a b**ch!'
I've just decided to paste some of this on the EDucation threads- and see if there's any teachers out there who may have a better idea or will at least reassure me that i'm not going to be burdening their workload too much- i really do feel that they have their work cut out with just teaching- but this is MY SON and i have to do as much as i can!

Yes, he's there to be cared for, but not by the psychologist. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, I thought that the psychologist was visiting the nursery specifically to assess Bagpipes' ds- perhaps he was there for a general visit? Drinking coloured water isn't dangerous in itself; would the psychologist already know if the child has reactions to colourings? In that situation I would probably expect him to intervene, though it might also be part of his remit to observe what happens when the child takes in some colouring- a kind of before and after situation.

I think the nursery are more to blame that the psychologist if they were aware of any food colouring reactions.

MrsF- you could ask for a home-school link book. I have one for ds1 and its great. I use it to communicate directly with the teacher.

Tissy- the ed psych was an adult in the vicinity. SUrely any adult would stop a child drinking water from a trough that has been put out to play with, especially if the child in quesiton has learning difficulties which mean it is highly likely they haven't understood that cups put out in a trough for playing with are not for drinking wth. (My son will also drink out of any cup he sees_ I would expect someone to stop him drinking out of a trough). Whether or not he;s allergic to colourings it's still a trough that has been full of little hands- hardly hygeinic.

Tissy: "though it might also be part of his remit to observe what happens when the child takes in some colouring- a kind of before and after situation. "

??????????Bagpipes child is not there to be experimented on!!!! An ed psyh visits a nursery to see what type of help a child needs- they are usually interactive, and sometimes they assess a child's developomental level. WOuld you expect them to sit by and watch whilst a child stuch thier fingers in a plug socket?

so true jimjams!!! I know it's not quite the same....but what if a ANY child fancied a peanut and they were allergic to them....we all KNOW how that can be fatal!
Had to post this as it's been going over in my head...had to 'let it go!!!!'

My point was that there is MAYBE more to the story than we know....if Bagpipes' ds has a known or suspected problem with colourings then the nursery should either not use them or supervise him more closely; the psychologist who is assessing the child's behaviour should know about that too, and intervene if it was felt to be detrimental.

I never suggested for one minute that her ds was the subject of an experiment or a "bloody circus exhibit", just that MAYBE the psychologist was there to OBSERVE. Yes, In some situations they will be interactive, but if, for example, a child has a problem with their relationships / interactions with other children/ adults then the first step would be for a skilled observer to see from an objective point of view what that problem is. Intervention would be wrong in this situation, it would change the dynamics of the relationships involved.

As for suggesting that I think it approriate for a psychologist to sit and watch a child putting their fingers in a socket, well that is not exactly a valid comparison- drinking water, even water in a play trough is not likely to be dangerous. Toys at nursery are not sterilised between children, and are frequently put in mouths, sucked, stuck up noses, trampled on the floor. Children can't be kept in a sterile environment just in case they catch something. My dd is far more likely to come home from nursery with a virus caught from another child sneezing, than a bug caught from an unhygienic water trough.

I understand what you are saying tissy but if it was supposed to be a 'normal' day for bagpipes son shouldn't and wouldn't the nursery assisstants have stopped him drinking it in the first place? I agree the ed pysch is there to observe in some situations but I would have thought after the first glass she would have stopped him drinking any more at least. I would be annoyed more with the nursery tbh

I removed my son from the first nursery he went to becuase of this "choses to" business. They told me he never wanted to paint for example. When I asked to read his observations sheets it became obvious that he was desperate to pain but didn't know how to go about it (there were more children than painting places so you needed to be a bit pushy). At age 4 he is unable to negotiate his way up a slide when other children are around- it could be said that he choses not to use the slide- but he wil do it if you stand there and tell him when its his turn. He just doesn't understnad how to go about it otherwise.

I think this is an example of staff not taking on board special needs - they are assuming that if they say "don't drink" he will understand what that means and be able to assimilate that info iykwim. it's dangerous to assume this sort of understanding of SN kids (which is why I am very fuussy about who takes ds1 outside near roads- most 4 year olds you can let run on ahead and shout "stop at the pavement" you can't do that with ds1). Whilst imo him sneaking a few sips would be perfectly understandable, letting him drink 3 cups of the stuff isn't on. I agree with batters and would ask for further information about the incident.

Bagpipes, my v simple answer to your q is "I would feel outraged, left out of the loop and disempowered". As far as I can see, the psychologist did tell you openly the next time they spoke to you. The nursery did not. I would just feel disturbed at the idea of my child drinking 3 glasses of coloured water intended for play, and whatever the eventual explanations etc, those would be my initial feelings. Sorry that this has happened.

I would be interested to know why the nursery didn't want you to know about it. Did they think it was unimportant or were they trying to hide it? Either way I would have been angry. And what on earth possessed that observer to let a child drink water that was there to be played with???? At the very least they should have alerted someone.

Hi everyone - WOW I am blown away with all the comments. I honestly had no idea about him drinking this coloured water at all - I didn't even know they used coloured water for play. Everyday I have been there, it is normally just plain on 'natural' water. Yes, I am very, very angry with the kindergarten, my psychologist, my team of intervention teachers etc... Today, I had a massive outburst at our early intervention today. I told all 5 therapists - No one is listening to me, I am tired and sick to death of explaining every week the same issues over and over again. I basically exploded to be honest - was really unhappy about everything. My psychologist is not working with me at all, she seems to be so 'POSITIVE' with everything!!!! It doesn't matter what my son does (whether it is something I feel is not appropriate behaviour - she turns it all around) My son appears to be the victim - BUT unfortunately he is not (boy we know this for sure!!!) I don't think my son does have a food colouring problem - BUT when I mentioned this briefly yesterday at his IEP - I said, wow DS was in such a terrible mood after kindergarten - I honestly don't know why this happened. My psychologist 'popped up with' interesting I wonder if its because he drank all that coloured water. I then said 'what coloured water'??? She then turned the whole situation into: 'he was told once not to drink it - the teacher moved away, and DS drank a whole cup full - teacher came back and said 'don't drink the water' teacher moved away again, returned and said 3RD TIME!!!!!! out and out ridiculous!! don't drink the water - teacher went away, and once again DS drank another cup full!! Psychologist turned this whole situation around - WOW he was so clever, he waited till the teacher was out of site - What does that tell you???? about the teachers at this kindgergarten?? This is the second visit my psychologist has had there - she coming round home Tuesday night with our full report - I am expecting "Absolutely nothing" to come out from it. Sorry, for letting off steam - BUT I have had one h...... of a day with therapists today -Threatened to have my son removed from this therapy team - as no one is helping us or listening to us.

Jimjams - I was told today he doesn't have planning skills - they have introduced 'mapping' which you guys call visual timetable. Does anyone use this on mumsnet?? - If so, how well does it work?? How often do you do it?? Do you feel it takes alot of 'anger, frustration away from your child?? I told my therapists today, I feel I am sinking deeper and deeper and today was the lowest I had felt since his birth. I honestly think - they have placed my son in the 'too hard pile' They rang me at home late today - checking up on how I was - and admitted "maybe we haven't been there for you and your son, and we should of been doing more UMMMMMMMM this was the reaction I had expected. You have to just about scream the place down to get the needed attention. Thanks for listening everyone - I honestly get more from mumsnet then support and help here in New Zealand.

We use visual timetables- but ds1 isn't too fussed about change and what is coming next so just telling him works as well. I know other people for whom it is a real lifesave though- definitely useful.

the psych sounds a loony. I take it she hasn't got any children of her own. Perhaps point out to her that maybe he wasn't being sneaky and waiting until the helper was out of sight - just maybe he didn't really understand or remember "don't drink" because he associates cups with drinking more strongly than he associates cups with a verbal instruction of "don't drink". Is it possible to tranfer to another team?

Maybe I'm a bit dim but it was only coloured water, they weren't letting him drink poison, it was prob coloured with food colouring - they used to do this when dd went to pre-school and all the kids had a drink at one point or another. Just because it was there.

As it's only coloured water I don't think that it's necessary for you to be told - just not that big a deal imo, infact I think that it's amussing that he waited for the teacher to move away - very clever as he worked out that the psychologist wouldn't stop him.

Bagpipes - I think that you have other problems that you need to address with regard to the care of both you and your son and that you're using the coloured water drinking incident as a scape goat, you should tackle the more serious issues and let this one go.

Ok I'm ready to be shot down, but that is just my opinion.

The point is that a child with special needs has just that - SPECIAL NEEDS! They don't always respond to instructions in the same way as others do. What can be harmless to one child can have dire results for an SN child. Aside from the hygiene question there is also the issue of communication. Parents of SN kids need to be kept FULLY informed.

The water wouldn't have been left unattended if it wasn't safe for all of the children, a peck of dirt and all that, you can't keep children in a sterile environment it's not healthy regardless of special needs or not.

I'm not perhaps getting the point but I do understand that yes it might have been nice to have been told about it but not essential, the teachers must have lots of other incidents each day with the children they care for and needless to say these don't get reported back to each and every parent.

I wonder how many other children drank the water that day?

I'm only assuming that the kindergarten do inform you of other things ie how he has interacted that day in general any upsets that may still be bothering him any accidents ie injury.

I suppose it must be hard for parents of non-SN kids to understand how different SN kids can be. If you were told that your child had spent the entire morning in the sand corner you would think it insignificant. If I was told the same thing I would know instantly that he was extremely distressed. He touches sand to calm himself down. So yes, these things ARE important.

Exactly coppertop. If I went to pick up my son from nursery and saw a child drinking cups of water from a play trough I would stop them or at the very least inform a member of staff. If I saw a child with DS doing this I would be especially quick to do this, as I would assume that he/she didn't have the understanding to not do that.

BTW I am the least sterile person around (remember it was my son who ate his brother's poo), I frequently find my eldest son playing in the toilet (obviuosly I stop him when I find him). But I do think you don't just sit back and watch any child down three cups of play water without intervening. I can't believe anyone could disagree with that.

You do have to watch DS children more. Another child might take a couple of sips from the cup, whereas a DS child might drink the whole cup. Maybe it isn't poison, but it isn't exactly good either. Surely, it could happen as an accident. The point I find disturbing here is the psychologist who were "observing".

Jimjams, a bit of poo is just character-building