problems at school, the way forward for 10 yr old ds?

[Buffy71]

Hi, I have been reading posts on mn for a while but this is my first post. My son is in yr 6 and has been on school action or school action plus since yr 1. YR seemed ok they were positive about him until the final parent teacher consultation where i was given a list of unnacceptable and "frankly odd" behviour (quote from HT),

At the time I questioned why i hadnt been informed, and a behaviour book was set up, this was soon stopped as his class teacher aggreed it was unhelpful as the behaviours noted were never very problematic.

I took a wait and see approach, allways went to any meetings, helpet with school outings and have always been polite and courteous to teaching staff.

Throughout the next few years there has been a pattern of reporting of lists of concerns, and behaviour at consultations but nothing in between.

I agreed to allowing outstid assessments, but he has only been seen by the social communications team who didn't observe any of the behaviour.

I have requested school refer to LEA EP or the school nurse for counselling. They have said they can do no more until I have made referral to CAMHS, I have resisted till now as ds problems occure in school so i would have thought that would be the best place to observe and deal with them?

He goes to Cubs, gardening club and Drama classes outside of school with no problems.

I am not saying my son is perfect, he can be stubbourn and opinionated but also sensitive and caring. He has never been aggressive or threatening or violent. He will argue about things he sees as unfair. He is quick to show emotions and this has left him open to teasing and taunting, and although he's always liked going to school and has always had a couple of friends to keep him going. this year sees him with no strong friendships (in school) and a teacher who seems intent on entering into a power struggle with him. An example, he is often prodded and poked (as this always exudes a reaction) but the teacher won't believe him unless she whitnesses it (these are 10/11 year olds they won't do it when she's watching) or another child corroberates his story. Not being believed when he's telling the truth is something ds find very difficult to let go of, so he is then accused of being rude for arguing with the teacher (all in front of class mates) who are now excluding him when choosing working grps. The teacher told him the other day no one wanted to work with him because of his behaviour and he had to work alone, he then got into trouble for not completing the piece of work...I was so cross, he was trying to hold it together about being upset with being left out. She also told me she's never taught a child like my son in her entire career!!

Anyway, I am going on and on, so much on my mind. I have approached my lovely GP about a referral to CAMHS hoping at the very least he will get some insight/help managing his emotions and dealing with teasing. He's a lovely lad, sometimes gets quite negative about things but this never lasts long and he can be cajolled out of it pretty quickly, just needs the oppertuinty to voice his worries which i always allow. The GP also wanted to know why the school has not tried other agencies in light of his SA+. She has requested I ask the school to send her a letter explaining why they want a CAMHS referral and why nothing else has been tried. I should also say they couldnt tell me what extra support he currently receives and i have never been part of compiling his IEP's they are just given to me to sign, and i dont always see them.

I want to write a letter requesting the school write to my GP rather then askini in person as I want to outline my concerns in writing and cc the GP. Do you think this would be acceptable? or too heavyhanded,

I no longer fully trust the school to be honest, and I think they view me as a difficult parent (due to my indecission and questioning, as i said I have never been rude and have never actually complained)

Sorry soo long
new to all this
thanks for reading
any suggestions welcome

I should also add that in the very early days the head teacher on numerous occassions mentioned AS/ASD I was so taken aback at the time I said that surely they couldnt diagnose and shouldnt they be open minded about any poss, LD/SN or emotional/behaviour prob.

They now very much focus on him as having a social communication issue, and I am willing to see what any assessment shows up, He is the same boy to me regardless of the label, its my job to get him to adulthood with ego and sel esteem intact. But, ironically, I feel school are more rigid thinking and inflexible and unempethetic then my son has ever been (no offence intended to anyone on the spectrum I know its not that simple, just at wits end with school) I mean that yes, there are areas he may benefit from extra input, I have never denied that but do they really need a dx to deal with the teasing/ exclusion they see in front of them?

My DS had a teacher like that in Year 6 who couldn't see that she was part of the problem.
Changes are underway in education and some schools do seem to be making up their own rules, but at present the SENCoP has not been superceded. You need to get yourself a copy of that. Search "Special Educational Needs Code of Practice". As far as I know you can still get a copy free or download it yourself.
It was always considered "good practice" to involve parents in writing IEPs.
You can write to the Headteacher and ask for the involvement of the Educational Psychologist, explaining why.
You should also request a copy of the school's anti bullying policy.
I would probably also ask for an appointment with the SENCo and askwhat arrangements are in place to see whether they tie up with what is in his IEP.
Everyone needs a Headteacher who describes a child's behaviour as "frankly odd" (not). Is your DS changing school in 2012 or is he in a middle school?

Thanks Jandy... I have discussed EP with the Head, SECO and various head of years, always get the same response that they (EP) don't deal with these sort of problems cause the concern is not ds' academic ability??? Then say they don't know what he's fully capable of because of his overreactions to whats going on in class!! That the exclusion is due to him trying to control games and the teasing is because he's "different" (better then odd at least)

When he has had friends over it is usually they who decide what to play not my son. When we go camping he finds a grp of pals by the end of the first day.

The head would often turn up unnanounced at consultations and shout me down when i tried to question or ask for clarification.

For example she said he was now showing some aggressive tendancies, when asked what? she says he pushes people away if they are in his space?? (i guess suggesting tactile/space sensitivity) when i asked my son he said he pushes A B + C away when they are prodding him and he's asked them to stop, which doesnt seem so unreasonable. But that is not how it is reported.

I was once told the the EP would refuse to get involved unless a CAMHS referral was made and I had to refer cause the school cant refer to CAMHS??

He will be moving on to senior school in 2012.

I guess my plan would be to refer to camhs ( i know they're not quick) then hopefully they'll see him around the time of transition and if I ask for meeting with senco in new school in first term I may be able to foster a better working relationship with them?? Hope I'm not being too naive. DS likes the idea of new school, fresh start and some help controlling his emotions.

I will look up SENCop and ask for anti bullying policy.

DS just home from school, his teacher away on training today, he had a great day!

Hi buffy

re your comments (in quote marks):-
"I was once told the the EP would refuse to get involved unless a CAMHS referral was made and I had to refer cause the school cant refer to CAMHS??"

Nonsense, they fed you a line here re EP but school I don't think can refer to CAMHS directly.

BTW is this school DS attends a very academically focussed one to the exclusion of everything else?. It would not surprise me if that was the case.
Is DS on SA or SA plus?. Whichever plan he is on, he has languished on it. Also support on these are limited and importantly not legally binding.

"He will be moving on to senior school in 2012".

His current school have failed him to my mind and even if there was something like a statement in place, they would not I think have wanted to help him. You as his mum have been failed too by school.

I would start visiting the secondary schools in your area NOW and see how the land lies. Meet the SENCO of each school at the very least. You need now to establish a relationship with his future school; it does not do any harm at all for him to see his new school early. You will also need to see the SENCO at his proposed secondary school a lot earlier than during the first term.

"I guess my plan would be to refer to camhs ( i know they're not quick) then hopefully they'll see him around the time of transition and if I ask for meeting with senco in new school in first term I may be able to foster a better working relationship with them?? Hope I'm not being too naive. DS likes the idea of new school, fresh start and some help controlling his emotions".

CAMHS certainly have their place but opinion of them on here is very mixed indeed. Some are far better than others. Them seeing him around the time of transition may be a pipe dream; you could be waiting a year to see this lot.

Another way forward is to ask your own GP to refer you to a developmental paediatrician. These people can diagnose.

I agree with Attilla that CAMHS aren't necessarily great. Never have been sure what a developmental paed does. Round here you go to the Community Paediatrician. Asking your GP about this is definitely good advice.

We have already made visits to local secondary school there are 2 DS liked and we put those as our choices. Both have good SN depts.

His present school is not particularly academically focussed, they have a larger then average percentage of children with SEN. We live in an area of vey mixed social demography. I am in the minority having been to uni and having a job and as a lone parent of one boy i feel we 'tick' alot of boxes.

I strongly feel they have not dealt with the bullying aspect of ds' behaviour, I worry that when I inform them that i am referring to camhs they will rest on their laurels even more. I dont think his behaviour warrents a dx, but that is something i will discuss/accept with camhs/paedeatrition etc.

I once said to the head that obtaining a diagnosis doesnt solve the issue of dealing with the bullying and his reactions to it. She just said "when camhs recieve our report they'll see there's something wrong with him"...this one sentence is the main reason i deliberated for so long, the fear that what my son and i want or feel will be incidental to the whole process which the school thinks is 'in the bag' so to speak.

I have to say they are really racking up the pressure this year, I don't know whether its genuine concern for my boy or to do with SATS year and the fact he moves to new school next year and they are worried they haven't done anything.

DS is on SA+ has been for 5 years.

I have never understood that while they are adamant that he needs help, they want me to do it all. like I say no probs outside of school.
They have never mentioned statementing, I wonder if this is what they want? But at the mo he doesnt seem to get any 1 to 1 time apart from a half hour chat with senco once a week about feelings??

sorry, keep writing long posts, i'm sure i'll learn to summarise, writing letter to school at same time..need to edit that too ha!

it could just be the natural timing of his issues becoming more obvious? (or presenting slightly differently and more obviously? particularly in comparison with his peers, who at this age will be very set in conformity.)

i only say this because we are following the same-ish path with ds1. he is very bright, but has a number of other idiosyncracies which mean that he doesn't 'fit' with the school system. (and i say system deliberately, as we move a lot and he has been in a number of different schools, the teachers of which have essentially said the same thing, year on year.)

but i can see the views and the behaviours escalating. (ds1 is almost 10) and in response the teacher's views are getting more serious. (his current teacher spent an hour and a quarter with us at the parent consultation instead of the 15 mins usually allocated). we are of course also on the 3rd or 4th paediatrician. and now it is time to get a full psycho-ed assessment done.

earlier assessment and some form of intervention might have helped, but access to ed psychs are so limited that there is no particular remit for school to get involved if the child is coping with the curriculum, and not being too disruptive in the classroom. there are children who are clearly in much more need of assessment time and funds, for their own sake, and for the sake of their peers.

but i think kids who have some milder/ less easily dx issues do reach the point where they get to the top of the priority list for assessment. and i think that's what's happened to both your ds and mine.

so ds1's psycho-ed assessment is booked for december. (all done through health, not ed, but obv school have submitted checklists etc) get yourself onto camhs and on to the list for assessment.

labelling isn't a bad thing you know. and it will often shed light on things you hadn't even realised were connected.

interesting you note that he is fine at cubs/ gardening etc. i would have said the same thing about ds1 until i ran a cub group last year. at least 50% of our cubs had either a dx issue or were undergoing assessment. and every single week we smiled at the parents and said something positive about their ds's behaviour that week. the only time we discussed problematic behaviours was in the case of one child where we felt that sharing concerns would give the parents greater control over the diagnostic process.

and i watched ds1 exhibit some markedly different behaviours from the norm week after week at cubs, and not one of his previous leaders had ever said anything to me at all. the scouting movement is a safe place where individuals are allowed to be themselves, however quirky. school? not so much.

Like I said, a dx will have no effect on how i view my ds, heck I was definitely quirky, odd, and a challenge when I was at school :o its the limitations it places in the minds of others that i will need to weigh up should a dx be made.

I have requested a referral to camhs but my GP is requesting a letter from the school first to explain why they haven't made use of other agencies first.

And as a health professional and a lone parent and a friend of parents with SN I am aware that a dx is not the destination, its the start of another battle.

thankyou everyone for sharing your experiences and knowledge

apols if i sounded soap-boxy i just meant that it probably wasn't a priority for the school before (hence not bothering to do anything), but now at this stage (sats or because he is now more noticeably different from his peers) he has become the priority at this point. genuinely, rather than they just haven't been arsed before.

not soap-boxy madwoman :) School has always been very serious about his 'issues' and have made me feel like a failure when i've said no to camhs in the past, I think they think i don't understand when i've just disagreed and made suggestions.

I just haven't known what to believe when at times the stuff they are worried about make no sense..I was called in when he was 5yrs old cause he'd had a fight with a child over a ball, he ended up smacking them and i was told "see he's hitting others now, children of his age don't hit", he had never done it before and hasn't since, although he has been pushed and kicked himself and they've made the suggetion he hasnt been kicked or pushed but rather doesn't know where his body is in space?!! (its the same 3 boys that kick or push him), which is why I'm concerned with what this particular school would do with a dx!

Anyway, have written a letter outlining the GP's willingness to refer to camhs once school has written her a letter and outlining my concerns queries re the teasing and taunting the focus on me to make referrals and requesting a copy of his latest IEP and details of how they are currently trying to meet his needs. I've tried to be matter of fact and not personal so we'll see how it goes.

anything that will equip ds with the emotional tools to get through school is fine by me.

oh, they do sound a bit odd...

I think the school have to pay for EP to visit. Usually though if a child is on SA+ that includes having an EP visit and make a report of findings and needs (at least it is in our school)

Dont know how to word this so apologies if it all comes out wrong :)

But if the school have constantly mentioned his issues and behaviour for a long time did you not think to investigate with the GP before? They are obviously concerned for him even though they havent called in a E psych. Maybe the school mean that the psych cant dx and they are trying to gentley say that they believe his needs could be more indepth than just an EP assessment. Also a dx can get more intervention on help needed more so that just staying in the system and coping. Schools are more understanding and allowances made should your DS bully due to stress etc if their is a reason behind it.

He will be going to senior school soon and it will be a lot tougher there and if his issues are not checked then he could well be in for a difficult time ahead.

By the way you dont need to accept a dx should they offer it but you could at least find out exactly what his needs are in the long run and apply for a statement of needs to carry him through to senior school as this is based on educational need rather than dx. If the LA decide to assess an EP will visit the school and make a report as a matter of course. This also takes a long time to get.

I am only posting this because I was of similar mind when our school first mentioned issues about my DS. I didnt want anything to be different, the issues were at school not home so it must be them etc. It took me 12 months to realise why not get him assessed. I am glad I did as the school was right. They were not moaning they were trying to help :)

Your son is on SA+. What support are they giving him? They don't seem to be doing anything. If he has a TA near him then the other kids couldn't poke and prod him. This is clearly going on and they are being very dim if they don't think this is happening.
As a secondary teacher it never ceases to amaze me how wrong some primary schools can be about students.

I would always advise against a move in year 6 but given that he's not going to achieve much academically where he is and he is obviously not a totally happy bunny, is it worth moving him this year - would he 'buy' that or would it unsettle him further. Year 6 is a really really horrible year with the focus so SAT orientated that a lot of kids that I see in year 7 are shell shocked by it all and slightly damaged - particularly the ones who for whatever reason have some difficulties. I think at any rate you need to do lots of transition work with the new secondary school from around June onwards - get your input in before this school does!

i find it weird that the school hasn't initiated anything themselves - rather than expecting the parent too. My SIL is in complete denial about my nephew - so in an even more extreme situation. He is now yr5 - and she still hasn't returned any of the forms they have tried to give her - incl. Connors and to participate in a CAF.
Sounds a bit like my DS's old school - that I moved him from. He was never badly behaved - so they could ignore him and the class status quo wouldn't be unbalanced. I was told by the SENCo that they could only 'deal with the most needy 5-6 children' my DS was apparently 6-7 - just outside their cut off point for actively helping.

Justaboutstillthere, my son doesn't bully, did you read my original post? he is bullied. I have now asked for a referral to camhs, again requested a referral to EP, regular meetings which i was promissed befor but didn't happen etc. They aren't constantly giving me reports of concerns, I've been called in during the school day a handfull of times in 6 years about behaviour. He has never been sent home for behaviour, I usually get mixed reports throughout the year then a damning one at the end. This year the negatives are outweighing the positives and have been from the start of term so I have asked my gp for a referral. And I am not anti label, I said a label means nothing to me, ds is ds, if he's on the spectrum he's on the spectrum, if a dx is suggested as helpful by camhs/ pead then thats the route i'll go. I don't believe theres any right or wrong way, or proscribed timescale when things have to be done. We are all individuals and the time and place we r at is the right time for us to act now. Others will be quicker or slower. Sorry if thats all a bit flowery.

flyingmum, yes my intention is to contact the senior school he is allocated to, we get confirmation in March, so i will do so then and hopefully work on transition with them. ds does not want to move school for y6, he would quite like to move class this year, he has never said this b4. He loves going to school, attendance is always 98% plus, never have had a fight getting him there.

School haven't offered much, and i guess what i was getting at is should i still be requesting EP now that he's being referred to camhs?

auntevil i don'y know what a connors is? they have never invited me to a caf so don't know if he's had one.

thanks everyone.

sorry justabout, some of my reply was for coff33pot :o

I once said to the head that obtaining a diagnosis doesnt solve the issue of dealing with the bullying and his reactions to it. She just said "when camhs recieve our report they'll see there's something wrong with him"...this one sentence is the main reason i deliberated for so long, the fear that what my son and i want or feel will be incidental to the whole process which the school thinks is 'in the bag' so to speak.

It was me who mentioned the word bullying in my post OP not Justa. I have read all your posts and have misread this quote in that it doesnt solve him bullying and how he responds. So sorry for misunderstanding.

However he obviously has problems with his behaviour according to his teacher in your first post (about no one working with him and had to work alone) bless him. This could be this years teacher totally missreading his behaviour as bad iyswim when infact it is due to the pressures he is under. This may well be why there is such a difference in reports as to previous years :)

Good luck on your referral and I hope he gets all the back up from the proffesionals he needs.

cross post lol took me so long to write it!