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I'm being ripped to shreds- any tactics?

72 replies

ImdreadinganAUTIExmas · 29/12/2005 21:24

DS1 is bored. Soooooo now his idea of fun is to pinch me. He started on Christmas Eve- after a few hours (!) of it I lost my temper, so hey presto its the new game. I've tried putting him out of the room (cries, but then comes in and immediately tries to pinch again), tried ignoring it (he follows me and pinches again). The only thing that works for 2 seconds is for me to say "you'll go out of the room" as he reaches for me. He goes away for 5 seconds, laughs and comes right back.

I hope it will disappear once school starts, but any further tips on extinguishing the behaviour? It bloody hurts and my face an neck are covered in scratches and welts. MIL is visiting in 2 weeks and I hope to god it's gone by then because he loves pinching her (she screams loudly and shouts at him so he is in heaven)

OP posts:
mizmiz · 31/12/2005 17:40

Trying to read your post carefully baka,but already acutely aware of the limitations of the Internet. Unless we know you and your ds we can only really offer general theories/ideas which are very hit and miss (if you will excuse the pun.)

I understand what you say about violence and anger spiralling out of control. The almost numb way that Charlotte Moore speaks of the havoc wreaked by her sons strikes me as possibly the only way to cope.
I regularly drive past the house of a child with ASD. it stands out a mile-surrounded by a high fence,padlocked door,ripped curtains,broken windows. I really don't think his mother (father left long ago) has the strength to even pretend to maintain a semblance of normality.

One thing interests me......you say he knows he is not meant to and knows that it is 'naughty'.
Does he have a concept of 'good' and 'bad' then because to me this suggets that the behaviour exists for more than the purpose of simply eliciting the desired response (ie yelping/shouting of the wounded).

We are know moving into the very complicated area of morals and ethics. I don't know if you have the energy to think about all of this stuff.

He knows it's wrong......
What do you actually mean by that? What level of 'wrong'/'naughty' is he aware of???

mizmiz · 31/12/2005 17:44

Sorry,you didn't use the word 'wrong',you actually said 'not meant to pinch'.

So what other things does he know that he is 'not meant to do'?? Are any of them really 'naughty' things that he would like to do and yet doesn't???
What gives him the self control/impetus to resist in these cases???

itllbelonelythisdavros · 31/12/2005 18:22

I dare say he knows he's not meant to poo on the floor for instance, and that is why he usually doesn't. There are probably dozens of examples of things he knows not to do, pour milk in his ear etc, but he may not really know WHY he shouldn't in the way we do iyswim.
Giddy, I totally know where you are coming from. I have actually tried that with my DS with hair pulling. He does it to DH but not to me and when he tried to I clutched a bit of his hair..... he didn't think it was funny like when he does it to Daddy and he hasn't done it to me since, but I don't think its good practice in general and suppose I'm lucky it worked. When you can't make any impression it is tempting to hit out, I've done it lots of times, but it just makes me feel worse and he looks scared. As Jimjams said in a previous post, to find that the one person he feels he can rely on and relax with is going to hurt him randomly could be just devestating (paraphrasing!).
Jimjams' DS's pinching must be a form of interaction/communication. I have done a fair bit of study of Challenging and Self Injurious Behaviour. The conclusion is that it is communication-related, unless it is due to some pain or sensory overload. That communication can simply be "I want your attention" (in which case as Jimjams has done you try not to give the attention) or it could be "I don't want to do this" or "I want that" etc etc. Making a real impression on serious Challenging Behaviour is extremely difficult, especially at home!
My latest thought is that I wonder if the pinching could be shaped into something like tickling? In theory that should be possible but we all know how very hard it is to systematically and consistently put these things into practice. Maybe JJ can get someone else to tickle her every time he pinches and give them the reaction he wants? Or she could tickle herself, ho ho.
I don't know, just some more thoughts.

giddy1 · 31/12/2005 19:35

Message deleted

getbakainyourjimjams · 31/12/2005 20:21

giddy I completely sympathise with you post and understand what you did and why it worked. All that has shocked me on this thread is a professional suggesting that I deliberately hurt him back because it is usually the last thing they would sanction. Partly because of that risk of frustration spiralling. It is also something that I know ds1's teachers would never do, and I know they would help me avoid it.

I'm sure if you came into our house mizmiz you woulsd recognise it as belonging to an autistic child. There are locks everywhere, scribbles on the wall and furniture that is falling to pieces. Partly because we've spent all our money on therapy (no more - we ran out and anyway he's in a great school now), and partly because I mind more if he poos on a new floor, or draws on an new wall than an old one. We still teach him acceptable behaviour (or try to) but in an environment that is more ameniable to lapses. I aim to do the house up in about 5 years as by then I suspect he'll be less trashy, and we'll have more money. Ds1's private SALT (who taught in an ASD school) used to say she was impressed that I was able to remain calm and kind of detach myself from it all- I replied something along the lines of "well you have to don't you" and she said that some couldn't - her inference being that thier mental health suffered. I don't try and give any sembence of normality, but not because I've given up, but because that would be living a lie and would be too stressful, and impossible to maintain.

As Davros says - yes he knows its naughty- which is why he does it. But not because he's trying to be "bad", because he knows naughty things get people riled. He doesn't understand naughtyness in the way that his 3 year old brother does. He doesn't do naughty things because he is generally obedient (god help us if ds3 is autistic, he's far more willfull), but he does findit highly amusing to be naughty if he's feeling mischievous. For example sometimes when we walk down the steet he'll start to giggle like crazy, and I know that he's going to either press someone's doorbell, or press a pelican crossing button or dive into an estate agents. All things that he knows are naughty and therefore = fun. To him pinching is the same as pressing someone's doorbel. Fun to do if you are bored, or feeling a bit mischeivous. For a while he drove his teacher up the wall because every time he turned the computer on in the classroom ds1 turned it off, to a fit of giggles.

Davros I think you are right- he is doing it for attention. Like your DS he is faiirly sociable despite being screamingly autistic, and likes little games.

Anyway the good news is I seem to have found saomwething that works at the moment. I was lying down on the sofa (feeling a bit grotty today - virus I think) and he came to join me as he usually does. I found that if he went to pinch me a bored sounding "hands down", or "no pinching" or " you'll go outside the room" worked. As I said yesterday in response to a post by Davros - verbal instructions appear to often work better with him. He's now pretneding to pinch me 90% of the time, rather than actually pinching. IN the meantime he was happy to play round and round the garden and wanted me to read James and the Giant peach to him (WTF???) Anyway the point is now I'm not being lunged at continuously I can get close enough to him to redirect and do something else (even if it is only round and round the garden).

mizmiz · 31/12/2005 22:20

Interesting what you say about giving him a verbal command in a bored voice.Very interesting indeed!
Something that goes so against the grain for someone who is not autistic which surely tells us a lot.
Reminds me of a series of 'playlets' that were on BBC Wales last year leading up to the Grand Slam. A group of four friends,two of whom are to marry.As Wales gets nearer to the GS,it becomes apparent that the big day will coincide with the GS. Anyway,to cut a long story short,they rig up a tv set in the reception and everyone is happy.
Joker best man gives a speech which starts (addressing the bride)

'Megan,I'm sure everyone will join me in saying that you look......absolutley awful.'
Complete silence,then everyone laughs hysterically.

Maybe the combination of the verbal command ('Don't do that') and the mild hysterical tone as well is too much for a person with ASD.

We have a model in s/lt-look at language in terms of Form Content and Use.
With your example we are arguably leaving one of these out-simpler messaage thus more easily conveyed???

Mind a bit fuzzy after some Champagne but am thinking a lot about this one.Noone has all the answers-we all muddle through as best we can.Some things work,some don't.

In any case,wishing you and your family a happy and peacefull 2006.

getbakainyourjimjams · 31/12/2005 23:03

Think you've missed it again Mizmiz. He pinches for reaction. Reaction is funny. I think Temple Grandin describes somewhere how she used to love winding up her nanny as then she yelled and shouted and pulled all sort of funny faces, and of course she undersood next to nothing of what she was saying (and cared even less), but hey she looked funny. He doesn't need a message, he knows how he "should" behave, but not for reasons of shame or anything else, just because he's been taught. That's why Davros suggested earlier reinforcing him for god behaviour- so good behaviour becomes far more rewarding. You are ascribing far too many NT emotions and understandings to him.

He pinches- I shout and scream and do other funny things so he is reinforced and does it again.
He pinches - I do nothing interesting just instruct- so its not worth doing again.

It's simple behaviourism in this particular case. Earlier today I was fishing something out of the dishwasher- he took me by surprise and pinched my back I shouted "ow" loudly. Dh said "huh nice reinforcement". He doesn't think or feel anything about pinching. He;s not distressed, he's not cross with me- he's just playing and if he enjoys the response he'll continue. If the response is boring he won't.

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 10:08

He's been reading this bloody thread. Has now added hair pulling to the repertoire.

He is mr stim today, so we are off to the beach (with 2 adult helpers!) Hopefully will relive some of the boredom and pinching.

misdee · 01/01/2006 10:08

wrap up warm, i am considering thex lakes.

Blandmum · 01/01/2006 10:12

Sorry if this is re-hashing stuff you have already posted, does he do it in school? Does he pinch anyone else?

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 10:21

He isn't doing it at school at the moment, but has done for a limited period. He did it all the time at mainstream but that's because they were comppletely unable to take on board that he found being shouted at reinforcing. And that shouting at him might make them feel better but would have bugger all effect on dealing with the behaviour (and in fact would make it worse). At the moment he is doing it to me in the main, dh occasionally, my mum a bit.

I was thinking about it this morning (having been woken up with a chunk taken out of my neck).

He is bored. Any reaction at all is the equivalent to a whole packet of chocolate buttons falling on his lap. I think I need to not only ignore the pinching but also do as Davros suggested earlier and reinforce no pinching (even by redirection as being redirected must be more rewarding that being bored).

But how on earth do you reinforce no pinching? I have a big egg timer. Would that work? No pinching for egg timer then button/game??? How would he understand that? Do other people's severely autistic kids understand that? I can see us getting into a physical thing where he's trying to pinch me and I'm trying to stop him before the egg timer runs out, but then that whole thing becomes like rough and tumble and therefore an amusing way to pass the time for him.

charliecat · 01/01/2006 10:22

Could you somehow turn the pinch into a stroke and laugh madly when he strokes you?

Blandmum · 01/01/2006 10:27

I might be 100% wrong on this (and it is bugger all help anyway), but do you think that he is 'targetting' you three because you are the most important people to him? Its very unpleasent for you, but do you think that as well as the reaction, he is starting a dialoge with you? and in an odd way isn't it an autistic 'extension' of an NT kids 'I trust you , so I can me at my worst with you' behaviour they show to their parents? A sort of horrid back handed compliment, if you like?

As I say, bugger all help.

Can you get him to use some other pinching stim? One of those stress balls, he could pinch that till the cows come home. Don't they do some that groan when you do it??

Happy 2006, BTW....may it soon be pinch free

itllbelonelythisdavros · 01/01/2006 12:48

Using a bored/neutral voice is standard ABA practice. Will catch up on thread properly later...... going to walk over Millenium Bridge with DD and DS and then McDonalds where DS will eat Ketchup, ooooooerrrr!!!

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 16:03

No hmb, because he's not angry or uptight or wanting a bad reaction, or doing anything NT kids do when they take it out on their parents- he's just socialising and playing. He does it to people he likes because he wants to interact with them.

only ketchup?? Yum Ds1 went to McD's with school, PECS exhanged over the counter (!) and ate chips

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 16:05

oh I think he's confining it to us, because he hasn't seen anyone else! He pretended to pinch my friend's ds- hovered over his arm with his hand, but just teased and was happy not to actually follow through!

Blandmum · 01/01/2006 16:15

Can you get him to pinch a bean bag/stress ball, rather than your arm...if you kept one in your pocket? Could you wean him on to having the interaction with you via the stress ball (similar sort of texture, at least to my rather fatty arms!)

That way you at least avoid some of the pain?

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 19:31

theoretically yes MB. In practice? I've never managed to redirect a single behaviour. I had a chat about redirection with the clinical psych (redirection for throwing). She said it was doable, but difficult in our sort of household (2 other young children).

Blandmum · 01/01/2006 19:33

Yes, see the added difficulty. It is a bit of a bugger isn't it? How has he been today? And when does he go back to school?

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 19:38

I have a few new marks. Am going to attempt to cut the nails again tonight, been trying for days now! Goes back on Wednesday - he's ready.

Blandmum · 01/01/2006 19:47

Hopefuly that will help a bit.

Just make sure that he gives you MIL a good pinch.....may as well get some benefot out of this eh?

getbakainyourjimjams · 01/01/2006 19:57

I hope he doesn't tbh. She'll hit the roof- major reinforcement....

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