I'm being ripped to shreds- any tactics?

[ImdreadinganAUTIExmas]

DS1 is bored. Soooooo now his idea of fun is to pinch me. He started on Christmas Eve- after a few hours (!) of it I lost my temper, so hey presto its the new game. I've tried putting him out of the room (cries, but then comes in and immediately tries to pinch again), tried ignoring it (he follows me and pinches again). The only thing that works for 2 seconds is for me to say "you'll go out of the room" as he reaches for me. He goes away for 5 seconds, laughs and comes right back.

I hope it will disappear once school starts, but any further tips on extinguishing the behaviour? It bloody hurts and my face an neck are covered in scratches and welts. MIL is visiting in 2 weeks and I hope to god it's gone by then because he loves pinching her (she screams loudly and shouts at him so he is in heaven)

Moondog, how on earth would he equate me causing him pain, with him causing me pain. It doesn't make sense. He doesn't have that level of understanding.

Him pinching me doesn't hurt him therefore he doesn't understand that it hurts me. Me hurting him is going to tell him what? That one of the few people in the world who is reliable will hurt him randomly, with no reason? Actually I have lost my temper before and smacked him (hard) and he laughed so I think I would have to actually hurt him enough to put him in casualty before he would even realise what was happening. Getting into a you've hurt me so I'll hurt you game is very very dangerous with a child with severe learning difficulties. One of the first things I learned was to walk away when things start getting physical so you don't spiral out of control from frustration and anger.

I'm really really shocked by your post to be honest. I thought you'd worked with children with SLD, I'd be more than horrified if any of ds1's teachers suggested that. When we keel over we need to know that he is being left people who understand the issues and what is and isn;t acceptable. TBH your post has completely depressed me- I'd always thought that people with exposure to the condition had very clear ideas of appropriate behaviour modification. Utterly and

I agree scummy it would be abusive if used by anyone. Still shocked by this (even though I have new scratches today).

I'm interested in whether you'd stamp on your dd's foot or twist her arm btw moondog.

I really feel for you GBIYJJ. This is one of the most awful things I have read on MN. I too am very

JJ - just get a cattle prod and be done with it!

I have to say that it was one of the most shocking suggestions I've ever read on MN!

Well jimjams,I am very sorry indeed if I have upset you.

Not my intention at all.

It was literally a throwaway suggestion and you will note that I posted in my capacity as a parent not as a professional.

I was merely trying to look at this from all angles as I have done in the past.
It obviously isn't something that sits well with you.

I apologise whole heartedly.

I think that what you're supposed to do is reinforce not doing the behaviour iyswim. So set up a timer, short at first and intervals getting longer, and reward him every time he hasn't pinched you in that time, making it clear that's why, maybe with some visual support. Great theory, let me know if you manage it!!!

Hiya!
Glad Christmas was a success for you all. My daft dh gave me this horrible thing which I feigned delight over - but will ecstatically happily give to you if you think it might help with ds1. You pinch it's hand and it says 16 set phrases. Let me know if you think it might divert attention and Ill drop it down.
I am shocked by any suggestion of deliberately hurting too.

Moondog - I have always liked and respected you and don't want to fall out.
However I think JJ has a very good point. Would you, as a parent, ever considering doing this to your own child?

Goosey's suggestion of a substitute is a classic intervention too..... have never got it to work myself though but always worth a try!

The other thing I should have said is that rather than reinforcing "not pinching" you probably should reinforce "good quiet hands" or some less ugly phrase that suits you. So emphasising a positive behaviour rather than a negative one.... with a picture of the hands together and calm or playing with some doodad.

well it's been easier for me today because he's started on everone else (well dh and my mum- common targets). goosey that thing sounds great- try him on it next time you have him (by which time I hope this will be gone!).

Moondog I've had comments of that type before (eg as BIL infamously said "have you thought about giving him a good smack?"). The actual comment doesn't shock me as such, it's the fact it came from a professional- even one wearing a parents hat. The problem with dealing with behaviour that is challenging physically is that it is very very easy to escalate if you respond the same way. This is exactly what happened when ds1 was in mainstream, he got physical with them and his LSA was far too rough with him. I know that some day he will be in the care of people who are not family and who don't love him. It's essential for me to know that he will still be treated appropriately and with respect, which doesn't include responding to challenging behaviour by hurting him.

The phrase "i'll put you outside the room" seems to be working in getting him off me- he then doesn't get the physical reward of me peeling his hands off (which he likes). DH took him out for a long walk today- which he enjoyed and I made him help me put the shopping away (which he also likes). Roll on next Wednesday- will try the redirection etc.

One problem I have is that any response soon becomes routine, and he will then pinch in order to get the routine. (something Lorna Wing mentions- I often think she's a bit mad, but thought she was dead right with that one).

I'm sure you have tried this already, but do you have a no pinching pecs card?

Horrible for you though, sending hugs, pointless but all I can do.

Talking of the physical response...... something that people often get wrong with DS is that they assume they need to get on top of him and physically redirect him. They think that, because he is an active and very physical child, then that is the way to deal with him. The real trick is to BACK OFF and direct him verbally or with PECs etc. He needs a lot of space and hates being crowded. Interesting that people often get that wrong at first and see such a difference once they realise he needs space. Sorry to hijack

gosh- snap davros. I actually find that verbally directing ds1 is much more successful that physically trying to control him (then he fights back, or sees it as rough and tumble).

I have a no pinching mummy sad laminated thing MB, but he thinks its funny (oh surprise), The problem I have is that he knows he's not meant to do it, but having no understanding of why just thinks its utterly hilarious, in the same way that he thinks pretending to stand on the dining room table is hilarious.

I must stress that I have never used physical force in my work. The very thought-!
Having been asked repeatedly if I use physical restraints on my own children,the answer is yes I do.

They are however not Autistic and I fully appreciate that this is a whole different scene.
And as an aside,I really don't think anyone who hasn't got a child with an ASD can ever really understand what it is like,even if they spend they lives working with these families.

It is so difficult-that I am fully aware of.
I know many individuals who are literally unable to mix in public because of this sort of behaviour.Invariably it started with pinching and escalated as the child got older and stronger.
I have been on the receiving end may times myself-par for the course.

It seem to be the $64000 question in this particular field.

Life is difficult enough for you baka-that I know.
As I said,I really am sorry for hurting you.

Also would add that in one particular instance,removing the child immediately from the 'scene of the crime' with no verbal or physical response on the part of the person attacked worked pretty well with one child. (Looks easy on paper,very hard when the child had ripped an earring through the earlobe of a TA to conjure up one example.)

Didn't work at all with someone else-leaving the classroom full of yelling adults and kids for a quiet little room in the bowels of the building was heaven.

That's what usually works with ds1 (removing from the scene of the crime).

ds1 doesn;t attack out of anger (unless pinned down, as he was at ms, which is I think a normal reaction), he does it because he thinks it is an appropriate way to interact- it get a response and a reaction which is funny to him. One of the main reasons I removed him from mainstream was because they were unable to respond appropriately to these sorts of behaviours. Since going to special school they are not generally a problem. TBH I still don't really count it as a problem as he doesn't go for people he isn't very familiar with and is wary enough of other children to only really try it with his siblings.

Physical restraints are different from actually hurting your child on purpose though aren't they? I use physical restraints to stop ds1 charging into the road, but I don't set out to hurt him in the process. Like Davros though I find that verbally instructing ds1 (if he is safe) is far more successful.

I did assume you didn't do this at work- you'd be sacked if you did!

We've got 'Mr Wonderful' (Goosey's doll) - ds loved to take his aggression out on it a while back. I can recommend it as a distraction.
I put ds out of the room for pinching (also hitting, and kicking - anything that actually hurts) - because I know I will shout otherwise. I don't think it stops him at all, just stops me getting more upset.

Well,why do you think he doesn't generally do it with people outside his close family?

My observation is that ininstances of challenging behaviour,there are invariably individuals that the person with the CB doesn't go for.
It is useful to observe and consider why this is so.

With one individual,who has attacked almost everyone (including such acts as taking off his seatbelt,fighting off his escort,and ptting his hands over the eyes of the taxi driver taking him homw!) there is a peer who I have never seen him lay a finger on in the 12 years I have known these two.

Reason seems to be that this boy screams very loudly,the moment the other one comes within about 2 metres of him,even if the movement is entirely innocent.
This boy obviously doesn't like the screaming and agitated response (although from the sounds of it,your ds would.)

I knew someone else (grown man) when a support worker who would remove his clothes,defecate and smear whenever we tried to go out. There was another SW who he never diod this with however. She used to take him to the public golf course for an afternoon and there were never any problems.

In retrospect,her low quiet voice and dislike of idle chit chat (which I consider to be the trigger for a lot of CB in people with ASD-that constant stream of 'Hello! How are you? Let's just get in the car then...oooh lovley day and look there's Susan say hello.......etc etc')
seemed to have the desired calming effect.

Now,whether these individuals understood the Pragmatics of a social exchange is entirely debatable. They did/do however see that there is nothing to be gained from continuing with the CB that they had/have been displaying around other people.

I know another person who kicks and scratches a great deal in his educational setting but doesn't do it at home.
He lives on a farm and has more than three brothers so Iam sure you can imagine the response that hiskicking and scratching gets.

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I am not criticising here at all. However the thought of purposely doing something like that just makes me feel ill.
These are human beings we are dealing with here. You wouldn't even do that to an animal surely? I can understand it's hard as I have a child with sn myself (communication disorder) and she has pushed me to the limits many times (not to the same degree as here though). However it is not her fault her brain doesn't work how it should and I certainly could not inflict pain like that purposely.
Giddy - I really do feel for you as I do not have to deal with what you are dealing with. I really hope you are getting some help and well deserved respite to help you out.

Mizmiz you are missing why he does it. I have a very clear understanding of why he does it. (we all do in the family) I saw it start (lots of exciting yelping and foot stamping from MIL) He does it because he thinks it is a game, becausehe thinks it is it is a social exchange. He often does it to people he likes. He doesn't do it to people outside the family that often because we don't see other people very often. A friend visited the other day and he pretended to do it to her 4 year old (who has an autistic sister so wasn't very phased, just came and told me). He is doing it to me at the moment because on xmas eve I responded with a yelp or some other sort of reaction and he wants that again. Trouble is almost any reaction is rewarding. I used to be immune because very time he did it to me I would calmly put him outside the room. The problem I have now is that he doesn't particularly care. Although he doesn't like going out of the room, he likes the routine of it. He knows he is not meant to pinch, he knows it is naughty- that is why he is doing it.

He did it at mainstream school (as I have already said) and it became a big problem there for certain teacher. He singled out the ones who reacted and would dive straight into them to get a yelp or a shout. In the end I sent in written notices of how to deal with the behaviour (ignore) but they couldn't. Our private very experienced SALT witnessed it in school and said it was being escalated by their reactions (lots of yelping and shouting).

In the last year of special school we had one incidence of it about 6 months ago which lasted for 1 or 2 weeks. This time he was going for familiar classmates as well as teachers (as always the ones he likes) - initially they thought it was a fright/flight response to noise, but I said it was more likely to be an inappropriate game. They chaged their reaction accordingly and it went away quickly.

The problem I have with hurting him in return is that I think when you are being pinched over and over again it is very easy to lose it. I have hit him before when cross (he'd pooed on the floor on purpose), and all he did was laugh and try to poo on the floor again. I really do think I would have to beat him before he even noticed that he was being hurt, and I am obviously not even go to go there. I can imagine that hurting him back in return, followed by him hurting me, then me hurting him would soon spiral out of control. I can see what you are saying giddy, but I know from situations that I have been in before that he would just find it funny- again its a response, that confirms that he has been naughty and is therefore hilariously funny.

The frustration I feel when I can't get him to understand that he is going too far is enormous. I think I am far safer walking away. I felt so awful after hitting him when he pooed on the floor- I'd lost it with a child who didn't have the understanding, and tbh I just felt dirty. And his reaction (to come back, make eye contact and just laugh) made it worse- Especially as in his case it doesn;it get rid of the challenging behaviour- it actually reinforces it.

The one thing I am fairly sure of is that it will be gone by this time next week (or the week after if not) when he being kept busy at school with more appropriate social exchanges. If I didn't have 2 other children, or an army of autism trained helpers (one would do) I doubt the problem would exist. Unfortunately I am far far far from perfect, and I am unable to give him 1:1 with challenging, interesting activities and so we suffer the fall out.