SN nursery for poss ASD son

[SqueakyCat]

My DS1 (just 3) attends a local pre-school. Less than 2 months ago it they bought up concerns about him, and he now has 1=1 support. with the 1=1 I think he's doing really well, he enjoys it, learns things, joins in a bit... The main "presenting issue" is that his speech is unclear and he can be aggressive when frustrated, violent towards staff and children, though I think with the 1=1 that's mostly under control. In the health system, we've been assessed by HV, referred to but not yet seen, paed and SALT for assessment. ASD / AS is suspected, though not 'clear-cut'.
Here's the issue. We have an ed psych appt coming up (instigated by pre-school) at which the preschool leader wants us to discuss DS1 attending the nursery at the special school as well as the local preschool. What could he get there he doesn't already get? why might it be beneficial? I can only see disadvantages at the moment. Any views?

My autistic ds transferred from a mainstream nursery to a sn one a the age of three.
I found the advanatges to be

Greater access to speech therapy
Support from staff that knew a lot about asd.
small group teaching.
greater support for me
a pace that suited my son
realistic expectations and task setting

You can ask to look at the sn provision, nobody could make you send your son if you don't feel its right for him.

ds1 transferred from mainstream to special after 4 terms. Ahhh the difference. Soooooo fab. Have a look and see what you think. I think sesssions in both environments give the best of both worlds.

Baka - why is it so good? do you wish you'd done it earlier?
DS1 is bright, talkative, affectionate, lively. He is settled and confident in his current preschool. I really hope for him to have ms schooling, hopefully eventually w/o 1=1.
Apart from better access to SALT (and that would be for him, not with me involved, presumably?), how is he going to benefit? And even SALT, for a 3yr old without a parent there, is it really going to be that useful? I need support in helping him, not for him to be pushed into an unfamiliar, distant environment. I can't cope with the idea of leaving him anywhere else. I can't see how he would benefit. Logistically it would be a nightmare (special school is quite a distance), probably meaning giving up my career, so it's a really serious decision for us and we need to be confident it's right. Emotionally it's a shock to go from 'he's a normal 2yr old' to 'you need to consider special school' within 8 weeks. Assessment-wise, it's really only the preschool's input, plus my HV who says it's not at all clear whether he's ASD.

sorry - I'm a bit waffly - it's been one of those shock days that's left me in tears (actually for the first time over all this!).

squeakycat, to go to a special needs nursery you son will need a statement of special needs, if he does go to special needs nursery then he will get free transport, he son has autism and he went to an ASD nursery at three, where he was one of 5 children three staff and a speech therapist three days a week, the expert input he had there meant that at five he moved to the village primary school, he is still there and is now in year four and doing well, i don't think he would have had enough input at mainstream nursery, my twin girls also have ASD they went to MS nursery and it was a nightmare, we pulled them out when the nursery nurse smacked DD across the face because she was holding her breath, we moved the girls to SN school and it is FAB they are 11 now and still have 8 years left at their school as it goes up to 19, some people see SN school as a poor last resort and feel if they send their child there they have failed as parents, i don't see it like that, my girls are very happy at school they have a great group of mates and i have made lots of mates there who understand my kids and value them for who they are, if i were you i would look at all the nurseries SN and MS then see where you think your son's needs will be best met, and don't forget you can move from one nursery to another.

Does he really need a statement to go to SN nursery? So is the Ed Psych likely to talk about statementing? Is DS really that far from the norm? He doesn't seem that bad to us. I'm really happy with how things are now.

It's not an ASD specific nursery, it's general learning disabilities.

Argh - all too much. I so don't want to meet this EP now. I have no idea what the meeting is for or why it was set up.

it really won't hurt to get a statement and they don't always like to give them out but the EP is who starts the process off, don't be worried about the meeting they are there to help your son, let us know how the meeting goes.

My ds went to a mainstream playgroup with a 1:1 for part of the week and a SN nursery for the rest. He got free transport for the SN place because it was further away and this was all before he'd got his statement.

The SN place had small groups, specialist equipment, access to speech therapy etc and was generally a safer environment (eg all door handles at tops of doors out of children's reach). The main acheivement from my point of view was that my ds learnt to be away from me without the complete hysterics that we had when I left him at playgroup, but it also provided an expert assessment of his needs which meant that the statementing process was actually very straightforward for us.

I couldn't send him off alone on a 30 min taxi journey at his age. Personally, I wouldn't do it to any primary age child, let alone a challenging pre-schooler. Quite apart from that, a friend's 10yr old recently had a shocking time on transport to special school - unbleivably appalling. (like my spelling)

I'd written some more stuff about whether special school is the right place for him, but too upset, so have deleted it and am going to bed. I can't beleive that others are discussing sending my fairly bright little boy to a school for children with severe learning disabilities. What am I missing?

Statementing is a signpost to get the help your son needs. It is a legally binding document that will set out your son's difficulties along with stratagies to help him. It will also give him a set number of hours per week support. No other plan will be able to give him such a degree of support.

I hope that you get the appointments with both the pead and SALT soon.

hi.
Ho do you feel about the possibility of your son being ASD/AS?

Its a lot to take in. I knew in my heart my ds ws ASD, but that didn't stop me clinging to the hope he might not be. Someone told me, that for a lot of peoel, teh sudden mention of ASD brings out a period of mourning,becuase they feel they have lost the child they thought they had.

A SN nursery would be able to better cater for you ds needs, it will be a smaller group, and the SALT in addition to any SALT you get at home once your referrals come through WILL help, it wil give your DS a basis for communication,a nd work on his existing language skills and improve from there. The smaller groups sizes mean that whilst yor ds will still have 1:1 support, there will be much less distraction around him, and his focus will be better.

If you can get him statemented go for it. It will get him teh extra support he needs, in SN and MS settings. and make the transition into priamry education a little easier for him.

The ed psych will want a history of your ds, what language he has, how he reacts to new settings, how he pays, does he play with other children... Then they will probably go into your sons nursery and observe.

And I understand your apprehension about SN nursery, you need ot check teh place out for yourself, BUT they are wonderful places, with lots of things to keep lo's happy.

SqueakyCat - my son was diagnosed as having high-functioning autism at the age of three. He's been in mainstream ever since - he's now six and in Year 2.

Although he copes very well, and is doing much better than I ever dreamt he would when he was three, he is still quite a worry. In particular, and this might strike a chord with you in the light of what you say about your DS1, he can still be violent to other children. He "knows" perfectly well that this is wrong and that he should not hit out, lash out etc, but sometimes he still does it. I do really worry that he will get into great trouble for this - either get really badly beaten up by another child and/or get excluded from school for his behaviour.

We've never had the option of even checking out a sn school or nursery, so I don't have any firsthand experience of them at all. However, I really don't see how it can do any harm to check out the special needs nursery at this stage. I think that your DS1 is at an absolutely crucial age and that good intervention now could make a lot of difference to how he gets on.

Why not go and see the other nursery. It doesn't mean he won't go to mainstream school and it might have the understanding and experience to find ways to help him and manage his behaviour which will make his entire school experience better. Surely it is better that he doesn't feel so frustrated and angry?
I do understand that he is bright, but they aren't suggesting that he doesn't go to the mainstream pre-school as well, so he might well get the best of both worlds. And if you feel that the specialist provision isn't right for him, you could always withdraw him later.

And they are all children! Just because they go to a specialist school doesn't mean they aren't just kids. My ds, who is dyspraxic and has problems with his motor skills (but improving so much atm!) was referred to a special needs version of Tumbletots set up by the local physiotherapy/child development department.
Ds is very bright - he is 4.2 and can read and write and do maths - but he mixed happily and unselfconsciously with kids with all sorts of disabilities - CP, autism, Downs, general learning disabilities, pretty severe, rare genetic syndromes...the lot. He didn't notice anything different about them tbh and he gained a lot from the sessions. And they were much better than regular Tumbletots because the groups were smaller and gentler, expectations were lower and achievement praised to the skies, the staff were far more expert, and it was a good, supportive experience. And ds was very far from being the best there - which was a good eye-opener for me as to the hugely varying abilities of children with special needs. He still goes to a group for older kids. Some are non-verbal, some have limited use of their limbs, but ds doesn't appear to perceive them any differently from the kids at his mainstream nursery.

are you sure they are discussing sending him to an SLD school? TBH from what you've said it sounds as if he wouldn't even be considered for such a position, as there would be other children in greater need of the place. Are his behaviours exceptionally challenging? DS1's school SLD/PMLD caters very well for challenging behaviours as a result of things like autism. If CBs are not dealt with appropriately they can escalate (happened to ds1 in ms school where the staff frankly didn't have a clue)

Locally children like your son would typically attend the nursery attached to the child development centre (which imo isn't that well run- although it has good facilities), or the nursery attached to an SLD school.- which has a good reputatiopn - AND- which at nursery level also takes mainstream children, or the local ican nursery which is apparently excellent.

I was worried about transpot (my son is 6, and started his school at 5), but the escorts and drivers have all been lovely.

yes good point aloha. Someone like ds1 is described as "complex" because at 1 level he is very bright (can work out how to get anything we try and keep away/lock away from him.) But of course has almost zero language and therefore lots of cognitive oddities. He's just a child though. The others in his class are all very different from him- some are very verbal for example (although some share the dx) but individual attention he gets means that doesn't matter. Also the teachers aren't interested in comparing any of the children to each other- just in giving each of them what they need. MS schools can't provide that- which is why I thinkit's always worth checking out specialist placements and looking at flexible options (part time in different provision).

OK, OK - if if it comes up I should go and see the place!

Baka: I think you've hit the nub of my query when you say you don't think he'd get a place as others need it more. The specific school mentioned is always described as for children (ages 2-19) with "severe, profound and complex learning difficulties". My Ds (only just 3) is verbal (extensive vocab, personal pronouns, tenses etc) - I can have long to-and-fro conversations with him about what we've done, what we're doing next, the weather (v british!) etc. He is numerate. He loves books and will creatively "read" a book to DS2 from the pictures, making up the story. His behaviour is agressive when frustrated (often seems unpredicatble, but when with me I can usually tell what's triggered it); his speech is unclear, toilet training very poor, and behaviour can be v unco-operative. I wonder whether he really is that bad, or whether the current ms preschool leader has a 'thing' about proactively supporting SN children and is being OTT in this case.

DO I mind an ASD dx? well - yes, wld rather he were more straightforward, but I know he isn't so would be happy to move forward.
do i mind the idea of him mixing with diverse children at sn nursery? no absolutely not. it's so inconvenient i need to be really sure, and i don't see why...

thanks for all responses

Your son does sound likes he's doing well, it oculd be over zealous playleaders, but it oculd also be taht the playleader has seen it so many times before that she knows the signs..

How does your ds play? does he pretend and I don' mean act out scenes from films/tv [asd and as children can act out from memory]does he get preoccupied with ordr and specific aspects of toys [wheels for example] does he have a particular line of interest [trains, space,etc] is his speech animated or monotonous when talkign about subjects he is intestested in...

And does he fully nderstand what he's hearign and saying? tahst a difficult one to guage, and that's why a SALTs been involved. Have you been referred ot childrns audiology? the problems with pronunciation, frustration and behavioural probelsm can also be associaed with hearign loss/impairment from glu ear etc.

Whatever happens, if your son is pu forwrd for a fulla ssessment etc it mgiht help to prepare for teh worst and hope for teh best, that way if you did get a dx, the world would fall out from under your feet.

I am sorry if I came across badly in my first post, I thik that becuase my son is Autistic I get a bit defensive when peoel think its this big bad condition, its hard yes, but its not teh end of teh world, my boys is bright, social and has a killer smile, what he lacks in speach, social interaction with stranger and imaginative paly, he more teh makes up for with inventivenmess, problem solving, and persistance.

must go, a dor do dah is required [thats a cup of juice btw]

I agree that it's worth at least considering the possibility of trying out the SN nursery as well as keeping him at his usual MS pre-school. If it doesn't work out or it's not what your ds needs then you won't have lost anything. As others have said though, it can be difficult to get such a placement.

My ds1 at 3yrs old was a very different child. He had only just begun to use some single words, paid little or no attention to other people and had a lot of sensory difficulties. He attended a MS pre-school and was never offered anything else. He could get aggressive with other children if they played with the toys in the 'wrong' way or if they got too close to him. He is now 5.5yrs old and in a mainstream school. In Reception he had 1:1 help but needed it less and less as the year progressed. In Yr 1 he gets a little extra help from the teaching assistant but otherwise is unsupported. He has now caught up with his speech/language and was recently assessed as being actually a little ahead. I still wish though that he had been given more help in those early days but nothing was available or offered.

Ds2 (2.9yrs) was much luckier. He was given a provisional diagnosis of autism at 23mths. Like his brother he is extremely bright but was in desperate need of early intervention. He started speech therapy at 2yrs - a year ahead of his brother. Once he'd been taught what he was supposed to be doing his progress took off at a tremendous rate. He is in the same MS pre-school that his brother attended. He is exceptionally bright but far more of a danger to himself and others than his brother was. Ds2 has a tendency to explode with rage when things are 'wrong'. It's very unwise to be too close to him when it happens. Again no SN nursery/pre-school has been offered, although he now gets funding for extra help.

I'm 99% sure that ds2 will do well in a MS school but I would still grab any opportunities for early intervention if they became available.

given the choice between portage and SN nursery, which would you choose?

Have done audiology - all OK. I suspect there were probs when he was a baby (lots of colds) that interferred with some of the pronunciation learning, but clearly that's not the whole issue.

His pronunciation is continuously improving.

Play: yes to pretend play. Probably less than usual, but he has (unprompted) put wooden bricks in his tractor-trailer and told me "I'm pretending them to be hay bales", and similar. I don't think he's extremely pre-occupied with order of things, though does like to match things (coloured chairs with the same colour table; putting things away in the right box). Line of interest: particualrly keen on diggers / trucks / trains / tractors / boats, but will play with animals, toy people.

Speech: usually approrpaitely animated, whatever the topic.

Understanding what he hears / says? I know that there's some echolalia in his speech, so I usually offer a choice rather than a simple Q (e.g. wld say "do you want to go to the park or stay at home?") But he could follow a complex instruction even if it's a new thing (e.g. go to the kitchen and get XX from the YY and bring it in here to give to DS2) though I would give it slowly and maybe repeat it. BUT I am aware I need to be very clear and say things several times, and sometimes things just don't go in. His grammer isn't perfect and he misuses irregular things (e.g. "Let I do it", thowed, mouses) so I'm confident a lot of what he says is not just straight repetition. OTOH, I know it takes a lot of work to explain why he can't do something he's being prevented from doing (e.g. eating ALL of something that is for sharing).

who mentioned the school? the nursery? It sounds like they don't understand what the school is about. Your son certainly doesn;t sound as if he would be in an SLD/PMLD?complex school unless the nursery takes a broader range of children (which the nursery in one of our local schools does- including NT completelymainstream children). I wouldn't worry too much- wait and see what the ed pscyh says- sounds a bit like a case of the nursery getting its wires crossed.