Interested in your opinions about difference between moderate and severe LD

[timetoask]

Some definitions I have found on the net specifically refer to the IQ (below this or above that, etc).
But is it really possible to measure the IQ of a child that has attention difficulties, sensory problems?

I am trying to decide which would be the best type of school for DS to go to. Mainstream with fulltime 1-to-1 has not worked, he is frustrated because he wants to be like the other children.
The EP said he is on the "severe" group, but that was based on some tests that in my opinion don't take the whole child into account.

So in your own words (not from the net please) how would you define the difference between moderate and severe?

Haven't got time to reply properly, will come back tonight but what you've said sounds similar to how my ds felt in mainstream. And no its definitely not all about iq.

How old is your ds? I take it he has a statement?

I'll be back later

It's not about IQ, it's about how the difficulty affects ability to learn.

If it affects your ability slightly - it's slight ... all the way to 'profound'.

In one way, if your child has a higher IQ they are more likely to get severe or profound rating because they 'should' be learning easily.

Hi GoodDays, please don't forget to come back, interested in your opinion.
DS doesn't have a statement (yet), because when he was a baby we moved abroad. We are moving back soon (no school options for him here), so I will be applying for a statement as soon as I find out where I am going to live!.

Still a bit shocked at knowing that we have to go back (his school have explained that they cannot cope with him anymore and will not accept him next year). He is 6 in year 1, but very delayed.

DS doesn't have a high IQ (I am not trying to change the facts really, we've got what we've got), but I think he has the ability to learn provided he gets the right help. I think he will learn slowly, but he can learn.

So is the best to put him in a school for severe cases? Or more moderate learning difficulties. I am concerned that on the one he won't be expected to acheive his full potential, but worried as well that he may not cope in a school that might be too demanding for him.

Hi tta

If you don't have a statement you wont get a place at a special school until you do have one and the process takes around six months so you would have to try mainstream first when you move back.

I would definitely try ms first anyway. Your ds wont have ft support before statement anyway so you will go through the process of school action and school action + which will provide some school-funded support. If the statement is successful, and I hope that it will be, it sounds as though your ds needs lots of support, that will be the time you will be able to consider a ss. By then you will have had more experience of the UK system and what is right for your ds.

The statementing process will take the opinions of several specialists into account who will look at different areas of his development. They will be looking at what is preventing your ds from accessing his education, and suggest ways that he can be helped. It may be that these suggestions can be carried out successfully in ms, or it may be that his needs are too complex for the ms environment and to reach his full potential he will need specialist support in a ss.

My eldest ds is 14, in year 9. He suffers from behavioural problems with emotional, social and attention difficulties. He coped well in infant school with support from SA+. In junior school he struggled more and was considrered 'difficult' and 'naughty'. We tried to get him a statement in year 6 but as he was academically doing ok we were refused. With hindsight I should have pushed that further but didn't know I could.

In year 8 he was permanently excluded for constant low level disruption and then we were successful with obtaining a statement for him. He started at a ss for behavioural difficulties half way through year 9. It is a 'tough' school with some very difficult pupils. I was concerned as he is more 'vulnerable then villainous' (in the words of the ep) but we had come to the conclusion that he would never cope in ms. A ss for more specific disabilities was not right for him and particularly not for the pupils that attend there as they may have been placed in a vulnerable position with him there. (He can be violent).

He has settled very well in his new school. He said he feels he belongs here and that the staff understand him. He has always felt as though he doesn't fit in and that always bothered him greatly. The staff are very understanding and take his difficulties into account, something ms school simply don't have the time for.

I do think if he had been given more support at a younger age he would not be in this position now and could maybe have continued with ms.

He is under a paediatrician but with no formal diagnosis.

My younger ds is 3 and starting school in September. He has global developmental delay (meaning he is delayed in all areas of his emotional, social, intellectual and physical development) and a speech and language disorder. He uses Makaton to communicate but his speech is coming along slowly. We have his statment in place and he will be having reasonable support (20 hours a week atm but we are appealing for more and have been told last week he will get more hours but not yet how much more)

He has had amazing support from a variety of professionals - EP, paediatrician, SALT, physio, OT, play therapist, Family Support Worker, Specialist Teacher. The pre school received full time funding for 1to1 support and they have also been great.

He is coming on really well with all the support and we are trying ms for him but are keeping open-minded about the long term outlook. We have been told that he may well need to move to a ss in a few years, but that's not definite.

He is 'officially' classed as having a severe learning disability by the health professions and severe SEN by education.

ds1 however is not classed as having any learning disability by health professionals but severe SEN by education.

Do you have a diagnosis for your ds?

My advice to you would be, when you get back to the UK, see your GP as soon as possible. Take any reports or letters regarding your son's difficulties with you and ask to be referred to a paediatrician. Seek out the school nurse (often working with the health visiting team) local to you and speak to her. My school nurse has given great advice in the past.

When you are deciding on a school, speak with them frankly about your ds. Chose a school that is sympathetic to your ds's needs. Tell them you are considering applying for a statement. The process is much easier if you and the school are coming form the same place.

Push for the support you feel your ds needs and do it when he is younger, I believe he will benefit so much more than if you wait.

There's some amazing people here who offer sound professional advice and who can support you through the roller coaster of everything you have ahead. Certainly wrt diagnosing and statementing.

WRT to EP's tests. The do some specific testing so they can gauge developmental stages and levels but do observations too, their reports contain both statistical data and opinions after observations.

Obviously different areas work differently and this is purely based on my experience.

I hope some of this has been useful, I'm aware it's VERY long but i thought an outline of my experiences might be useful.

Hi, timetoask. TBH, I'm not sure what an LA will do with your DS when you move back. It will depend a bit on what provision he has been in in your present country. If it's MS then he will, in all probability start off in MS, if SS then with enough documentation and reports you may swing a temporary place in SS until they can reassess him.

In many LAs children with MLD, moderate learning difficulties, will have no option but MS or perhaps MS school with a special unit attached for usually a specific type of SEN, eg ASD, SLI (speech and language I) or Visually Impaired or Deaf etc. Many LAs only have special schools for SLD (severe learning difficulties) PMLD (profound and multiple learning difficulties) or BESD (behavioual, emotional and social difficulties).

If you are asking for my subjective view of the difference between MLD and SLD it would depend on how much the disability affects the ability to learn. There are different strategies and methods to aid learning, but children in SLD schools will be predominantly learning life skills, which should IMO include literacy and numeracy rather than a more academic curriculum.

Children in an MLD school or unit or MS should be following the national curriculum as much as is appropriate, with perhaps more emphasis on reaching their potential in maths and English, than concentrating on getting every language, science and humanity subject going.

Now, you asked for my subjective view, it's not necessarily a particularly accurate one. Where would you see your DS fitting in? Does he need good role models, does he have behavioural problems, will you want him to get academic and vocational qualifications?

Thank you GoodDays, really insightful to hear about your experience and happy to know that your DC are now getting the help they both need.
My DS1 sounds like your DS2 with global developmental delay. DS1's speech has improved significantly but it is still delayed enough to stop him from being able to really integrate with the NT children, specially because his play skills are still so immature. He is desperate to do what the other children do.

DS is going to mainstream school (school following the english curriculum), with a full time one to one, for 2 years, lovely school with 17 children in each classroom and 2 classroom TA. If in this fantastic environement it has not worked in mainstream, then I don't see how it will work in the UK with class sizes that are even bigger and less support in the classroom. His current mainstream school have excluded him from coming back next year.

EllenJane: Thanks for your explanation. Where does DS fit in? Well he he has had very good role models in his current school, and I hope that continues to be the case in the UK. He has very difficult behaviour, he is extremely defiant and is getting aggressive towards his TA (reason for which he is getting excluded). But I don't know if this behaviour is due to the fact that he is soooo frustrated at not being able to do what the other children do, at not being able to participate in their games (he is a very social being). If he were in the right place, maybe this behaviour would go away? He is sweet and challenging at the same time.

About his future, what can I say? I don't know yet what he might be capcable of with the right help. I dream that he will be able to get some sort of job and independance. He will not be able to get an academic qualification, but my hope is that he will active in his community, contribute and be fulfilled.

Based on what you have all written, I think my conculsion is that he does have severe educational needs. I really need to find the right school for him. I want him to be happy again.

timetoask, I'm slightly concerned that you are thinking about such a big decision on so few replies, so far. I am not an expert, just a mum with a child with SEN in MS, and friends with DC in SS as well as MS. Just feel nervous in case I have pushed you the wrong way.

Have to agree with ellen that this is a massive decision that will take an awful lot if consideration.

I have had a lot of advice to mull over and with ds1 we were totally against ss for many years so it was a long process coming around to that. We looked round many different ms and ss and spoke to many professionals at great length. (they must dread hearing my voice on the phone!) I got great advice here too.

Ds3's school and preschool decisions have been even more agonising as we are conscious of getting it right earlier but you have to be open minded, willing to listen and prepared to make changes.

It's not all about fitting into boxes. Every child is different as is every parent and every school.

What works for one won't necessarily work for another.

Be prepared that you are at the beginning of a journey!

Don't be concerned EllenJane, I have made a big decision yet, I would not decide my child's futures based on a few replies. I am getting a private assessment done in the UK in june which will hopefully help me clarify the picture.

Thanks for your replies, I think you explain things really well and have given me a much better understanding of what all this terminology means for us.

Hi, my dd2 has HFA, although her autism is not what they call severe (she has a high IQ) doctors/paeds have also said 'she is severly effected by her Autism because she is effected in so many ways with speech (severe delay) and sensory problems), dd2 started school last september, we were refussed a place at a sn school so she goes to MS with full 1:1 but on the agreement that if it does not work our she will go to the sn school, luckily so far things have worked out ok, we are moving her to another ms school in september (as we moved house) and i hope things continue to work out.

If he is bright then it will be hard to get him into a sn school unless all has failed at the ms school with full time 1:1. Can i ask 'what is going wrong at the ms school?' maybe its just the wrong school, maybe another ms school or a ms school with ASD unit would be better?

Visit some schools (ms and sn) and see what you feel is best for your ds. It is a hard choice to make.

My son attends a school for children with Severe LDs (SLD/PMLD) and yet I would say he has moderate learning difficulties. Clear as mud huh?

To my knowledge he has never had an IQ test, tho I would find it fascinating as I think his profile would be very 'scattered'.

At 4 he had global delays, speech delays phsyical delays and started special school. He has always made progress and over the last couple of years has made fantastic progress, due I think to being in a class of 7 children with 3 teaching staff! Now at 14 he is integrating part time into the 'unit' attached to our partner mainstream school.

Academically he is working at a NC2 level..maybe 3 in some areas. Which makes him about age 7. So that's technically half his life behind! In maths he is more able.. working at an age 10-11 level. He has a massive (if unclear) vocabulary . In an SLD school that makes him quite able (hence the integration) but we still have to add in his autism which means socially he has the understanding of a 5 yr old...

Sometimes we get flashes of cleverness, for want of a better word...

What I'm saying is that children rarely fit a neat box. My son will always need support because of his learning difficulties but also his autism..he might need just as much support if he were brighter academically, but more severely autistic!!
I think the way ahead is to get as many assessments done as possible, apply for a Statement asap and see where it leads. Children of academic ability rarely get SS places straight off even if it is a better solution :(

Hi all, this thread has been very useful for me, Thanks. I will print it and read it again.

Marne: DS started MS reception in sep 2009. All was going well. Even this year up until december there were only sporadic behaviour issues. The whole thing has escalated since January. I really think the main problem is that he is becoming much more aware of the differences.

As children get older their play skills and games also become more complex. DS has reached the point where he just cannot integrate and it is so obvious, even to him, that he is getting upset.

So to me, what is wrong with the school? I think it is fantastic school, the environment is great, the teachers are fantastic, the children are very sweet, they have been so flexible with DS. I cannot compare it to another mainstream school in the UK. When I read threads here on mumsnet about "inclusion teachers" etc, I realise that maybe the school doesn't have the support that UK mainstream schools have.

MEDUSA: good to know that your DS is doing so well his school is doing a really good job I think. My DS doesn't have autism, apart from his delays he has terrible attention. He needs small groups, if there is a lot going on, you just cannot keep his attention for more than 3 seconds.

So, if my DS will not be placed in a special school straight away, and I don'think mainstream with all the hours of support available will be any good, is there any middle ground? Can I find mainstream schools with separate units where DS can go to for certain subjects? Maybe that would be the ideal solution.

I think you are hoping for a quick solution and I doubt very much that will happen.

I think you will have to play the long game and go through the whole process gradually.

It may seem frustrating but it will hopefully ensure your ds gets the right placement for his needs. As you have said you know little about the system here (as we all do when we start out).

There are specialist units at some schools but these, afaik, are few and far between and in huge demand (as are all ss placements).

Hi timetoask, have you considered a combination of ms and ss initially? Would this provide you with the opportunity to consider both, gauge your child in both settings and give your child exposure to a range of children with a range of differing needs? At the same time you could have whatever assessments you need undertaken and then at the end of a fixed period reassess? I'm not an expert, just a mum and I don't know your child so this is just a question really not a suggestion! I realise many children wouldn't cope with two settings.

The SSs that I know fall into two categories-schools for moderate learning difficulties (lots of behavioural issues,IQ supposedly under 70 +DCs with ADHD and on the autistic spectrum)At this school pupils may be able to take GCSEs

The others are for DCs with complex , severe and profound difficulties - but at DS's school (the latter) there are children who are on split placements with mainstream school..I agree,clear as mud

You will have an element of choice,but the final decision rests with a panel who sit every few months -If you are applying to a particular school,they will read the reports and decide whether(in their opinion) it is the right placement.You are able to appeal if it is not the decision you want.

I would look at every possible school and see where YOU think your child would be happiest

timetoask

There is no easy answer, although some would prefer that there was one.

There are a wide range of sensory and motor information processing skills and abilities, which research scientists are still struggling to understand, and each new discovery leads them to believe that they are only scratching the surface of any real understanding of the functioning of the brain.

We are all born with different levels of IQ which is about our individual levels of intelligence or our ability to process different levels of increasingly complex information.

The next set of issues as you mention are the presences or lack of sensory and or motor information processing abilities. Those who have a high IQ are better able to develop alternative compensating skills to work around their information processing deficits, while others may not be able to compensate so well if at all.

Learning Difficulties refer to the problems experienced by some when trying to understand or process how others prefer to communicate or share information, covering a wide range of academic and social issues. This can bring into question the teaching methods being used and question whether the best form of communication is being used in light of the communication needs of those who have some come communication skill deficits. So this can depend on the communication skills of the communicator or teacher and their abilities to understand the communication needs of the intended recipient of that communication.