Suggestions please: 3yo with ASD hurting baby brother

[TiffanyToothache]

Hi,

Does anyone have any advice for me on dealing with this situation? It's getting me soooo frustrated :(

DS1 is nearly 4. DS2 arrived 8 months ago. DS2 is a very mobile baby, early crawler, cruising now, think he'll walk in a month or 2. This is NOT GOOD. We live in a small house and find it difficult to physically separate the 2 boys. Any time that DS2 approaches / gets too close to / LOOKS AT DS1's toys (train set usually) he gets a whack - hard :( If DS1 happens to be walking past DS2 crawling along he'll kick him in the head. He's slammed doors on him, pushed him over etc.

He wasn't physically aggressive before DS2 came along. Would shy away from any contact actually. Not long after DS2 arrived he started hitting me, only ever me. He's stopped that now. His sanction when he hit me was to play alone upstairs for a few minutes "away from other people". No punishment for him as he likes to play alone but a way of diffusing the situation and removing him. However, that doesn't seem to be working for hurting baby.

Has anyone got any helpful suggestions or advice I'm getting quite angry with him about it now.

Watching with interest. We have the same situation. DS is 3. DD is 9 months old. DS hits, kicks, punches, slams doors on, rides bike over DD. Also does the same to our new puppy. Also hits me and DH. And himself.

At the moment I swing between losing it with him, calmly putting him on naughty step, role playing, explaining for hours on end that DD will be sad and locking him the other side of our patio doors. Nothing works. Naughty step makes him hit DD so he can go on naughty step.

For a while I just swiped the baby up off the floor and carried her when ever he did it but add a puppy in and it became clear I couldnt carry everyone.

Stressed too.

Can you set a timer for 3mins, and each time it goes off, if he hasn't hurt the baby he gets a magic star or something. When it is etablished and he understands you could increase the timings.

Would that work?

He also needs to find a strategy for dealing with his brother touching his things.

He needs to know that he says 'MUM' and you will IMMEDIATELY remove the baby or something.

Magic stars are chocolates if you didn't get it.

smug - mine's chammomile (trying to calm down)

Tonight I lost it and said "right! straight to bed!" so now DH has been sitting with him for 2 hours because I've ballsed the routine.

Good thought about the timer starlight , thank you. May be worth considering. I think I would perhaps start with longer intervals though, half an hour perhaps.

Has anyone tried social stories about 'sharing' or can point me in the direction of a suitable one? I'm new to them, but they seem to work REALLY well for him so far. It seems to be the sharing aspect of having a brother which troubles him, rather than being envious of attention, I think. He's only kicked off (with baby) since baby got mobile and started heading towards his stuff.

A few days ago I noticed baby winces when DS walks by, as if he's expecting a kick. That made me so sad.

Yes, we've tried modelling " Someone get [baby] - he's getting a bit close" but even if I'm standing right there holding baby back saying " I've got him, he can't touch your train" he still lashes out.

Don't like to use chocolates as rewards for several reasons but they do affect his bowels and behaviour but he might get the concept of a sticker chart.

The reason you'd start with smaller intervals is to teach the actual skill in the first place and make it easy for your child to succeed.

Half an hour is a very long time to wait for something when you are unsure exactly of the rules.

we had a similar situation - ds was 2.5 when dd was born but pretty much ignored her until she was a year old & walking. We had a few different approaches:

1 - loads of positive reinforcement when he tolerated her presence (e.g. watching TV sitting next to her, not bashing her in the double buggy) - we used choc buttons & praise

2 - pairing her with good things - ds loves games like Pop Up Pirate, Buckaroo, snappy crocodile etc - these were only played when dd was around & involved (initially just sat on my lap, now dd is 2 she can play too)

3 - giving him language to deal with the situation - little siblings are annoying & take your stuff, his hitting out was a reaction to this - initially just 'STOP' or 'HELP', then more complex - that's mine, dd go away, don't break it etc, now he can negotiate a bit - dd I want the car you can have this instead

4 - punishment - I do punish aggression (this is crafty kicks/bites/shoves not related to her doing anything to him but just because he's being 4.5) - he hates me shouting at him - 'DS DO NOT HIT DD' - if he hits her with an object it is confiscated - 'Lightsabre is in time out because you hit dd with it' (very effective for ds) - and I use 5-10 minute time outs where he is taken to his room (behind a stairgate). If you do punish though you have to do it effectively - no point doing anything that he doesn't really dislike or it'll just be reinforcing. We rarely get to the punishment stage.

have you involved DS with caring for the baby?

He's feeling alittle unloved and doens't like sharing his toy's or mummy with baby. Maybe making him feel like big brother and getting him to help take care of baby might help i know it did when my DS1 was going though a similar stage.

ps your not alone hugs

Thanks for the tea, DH is making me a redbush...

DS is very naughty with chocolate rewards. He ignores them when we want to use them and then would tell us he had decided not to hit DD for three minutes when he decide he wanted a chocolate. (hence we suspect pathological demand avoidance) He does the same with toilet training. If he wants a sweet he goes and wees in the loo and comes and asks for a sweet. If we offer him a sweet on condition of weeing in loo, no chance.

Sticker chart smicker chart in this house im afraid.

Giving him a strategy for stopping DD taking his toys sounds good. He doesnt want her to have her toys either though!!

when we started (what was basically a toleration programme) we would reinforce every 30 seconds or so - it has to be immediate he won't get the relationship between no violence & reinforcer, & you need to find loads of opportunities for him to practise & be successful - no way could my ds manage even 2-3 minutes at 3yo.

You increase the time pretty quickly & fade the reinforcer - I can't remember the last time we used chocolate etc. Now I can leave them together for 15-20 minutes with just half an eye & a 'wow you're playing so nicely!'

Thank you for all suggestions - keep them coming, I'll try most things until I find a strategy that works :)

I take your point about time intervals Starlight. :)

Lots of good suggestions graciousenid. Positive reinforcement - well, we try, but we have to wait a while between good episodes to reinforce He will sometimes play "boo" with baby and we gush about how the boys play sooo nicely together. Pairing him with good things, hmmm, will have to think about how we can implement that here. DS not up to turn taking games - yet. We've given him some phrases to use (see above) and that's coming slowly, he usually asks someone to come after he's pushed him over, as an afterthought. Punishment - we've not been down this road much yet as he has until this year been extremely anxious to please and any sign of displeasure from me or DH had him in bits. It was enough to say calmly "we don't do that". I agree that hurting others is exceptional and needs a very firm message that it is totally unacceptable. I also think it should be a natural cause / effect ie - you hurt others and you have to go away from other people for a while, until you can "be nice/stop hurting". However, although this is diffusing the situation ie he will then play quite happily in his bedroom for longer than I would enforce, so isn't getting cross with baby, it doesn't seem to be deterring him from doing it again. Shouting at him gives him a fit of giggles (but not 'normal' ones - because he doesn't know how to respond to me shouting, they stop when I explain how to "fix" the situation, or when I stop ranting )

Thanks for the hugs leila. We have encouraged him so much with baby, but honestly, he is indifferent to him - unless he's near his stuff (or stuff which he likes). When baby was immobile he ignored him (unless the noise level was unacceptable ). He does help me at nappy time as per his social story before baby was born, he puts the dirty nappy in the bin and fetches a clean one. I think he does this because he likes to please us though, not out of interest in baby. Similarly, we got involved in bathing baby when he was tiny and he did it to please us and for our positive reactions. This is why I think a social story may help, but he won't stop out of empathy for baby, it will be because that's the way things "should be done" IYKWIM

"toleration programme" - I like it!

i think the introduction of DD2/DS2 is hard for any first child. they are so used to having every thing to themselves till then.its especially children with difficulties like ASD.

Kinda sad really ...

LeninGrad - absolutely agree.

Leningrad, that's a lovely way to look at it, that 2 will be the making of 1 :)

Am going to clear the kitchen table now and set up a train set on it for DS1 (it's usually the train set that sets off the territory war). It's that or his bedroom, but I don't want him to be off up there on his own all day even if he does

Haven't tried a sticker chart before with him, but he is pleased about the stickers he got from nursery. I think they are the reward in themselves, not a bigger reward when the chart is filled. He does like, and respond to, verbal praise.

I'm not even going for playing together here - I just want him to stop hurting baby for now!

Thanks again for your replies - it really helps to bounce ideas around with people in the same situation :)

I do get that he needs a 'safe place' to play where baby can't get at him - more than an NT child. We started by having them both in the living room, divided by a tox box wedged between the gap between 2 sofas. Now DS2 can pull himself up and rock the box and squeal at DS1. This is too close for DS1's comfort so we moved him to the only other downstairs room - kitchen. There are glass doors between living room and kitchen and DS2 will stand against the doors banging and squealing. Ds1 will open and close the door on him, open it so he falls, shout through the glass at him. We do try to distract DS2 but he makes a beeline for DS1 and it's a constant watch!

So now we are tripping over the sodding train set in the kitchen (bloody painful we call it 'track-foot' in this house) and then the toy box dividing the living room. If we move one baby escapes and gets hurt