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school changing toileting policy for ds - worried

14 replies

FickleFreckle · 03/05/2011 12:11

Hello everyone, am back after a short break due to illness. I've been thinking of you all and hoping that you are all doing OK as I know some of you are coping with very sad and/or difficult circumstances. You lot are my inspiration!

I am feeling worried because my son's teacher (who has been very nice and supportive as have all the staff in his reception class) wants him to stop using training pants. He has been wearing underwear with pull-ups over the top and has a toilet routine with 1:1 adult support. They want him to learn that he doesn't like being wet or dirty and take the initiative to go to the toilet without adult support. They have been very understanding so far but feel that they need to get him independently using the toilet before YR1.

My worry about this is that I am fairly sure ds has hyposensitivity and not much bowel control. He does not seem to have any bladder control at all or awareness that he is weeing. He only realises he is wet when his clothes are wet and then he finds it upsetting. He is only sometimes aware that he has done a poo.

Ds's bowels are unpredictable as he has constipation and overflow which is being treated with Movicol. He can go from not pooing at all to great sloppy up-the-back-jobs. He did have a problem with withholding (I think, it is hard to communicate with him) and now that has got better but his bowel patterns are still all over the place.

Ds also feels wobbly on the toilet and is happiest on a Bumbo seat with a footstool (which he doesn't have at school). We had a problem with him being scared to go on the loo in case he peed upward and wet himself but now we put a towel on his lap and he is starting to feel safe and relaxed. At school they have child-sized loos but no other accommodations. However with an adult with him he does seem to be OK about it there. He still can't do a wee standing up though although he really wants to try to be like his dad.

Ds has physical co-ordination problems and weak hand grip which make it hard to pull his trousers and pants up and down and wipe himself in more than a token way, or to get on and off the loo, or wash his hands properly.

If any of the toileting steps are done in a different way or different order he gets upset and finds it hard to adapt when given an explanation for the change - usually a sign of anxiety or lack of confidence with him. Usually the next step after that is going completely passive and apparently indifferent.

He also has probable ASD (in process of being diagnosed) with hyperlexia and this means that he finds it hard to understand what is happening in a joined-up way, think about cause-and-effect, and communicate his needs with adults. He is inconsistent with this, at some times seeming to understand much better than at others, and it is much worse when he is stressed. He tends to just answer "yes" or "no" to things because he thinks he is supposed to say that or else come out with a phrase that sounds appropriate but may not be true. He doesn't have much understanding of questions being meant to find out what he uniquely feels - he thinks it is like a quiz, with right and wrong answers so he just guesses.

Ds was completely withdrawn from the whole business of poos and toilets and found it very upsetting but we have seen some progress lately. He is now happy to sit on the loo after he has done a poo or stand and hold his penis in the vague vicinity of the loo if he has done a wee Grin. He really feels happier about this now and says he feels proud to be sitting on the loo like a big boy. I think this is real not just echolalia. We praise him for this because we want to encourage the behaviour of going to the loo and get him confident about all the steps involved, gradually getting him to have less adult input with each step. He said yesterday "I feel something funny in my nappy" when he had done a huge sloppy poo - this was massive progress and he got a "high-five" and a "Woo! Good telling!" which is what he gets if he informs us. He was really proud. I think this feeling of dignity and competence is a powerful motivation in itself and by consistently taking him to the loo and praising him for each bit he will want to do more and more as he matures (he is only 4.8 one of the youngest in his class after all).

I am really worried that this fragile progress will be derailed by taking off his training pants. I am scared he will feel totally out of control and stressed by finding his clothes soaked or covered in poo and will start withholding again, getting stomach problems and feeling unwell. I'm worried that if he is stressed he will not think clearly or communicate and might draw the wrong conclusion (I got pee all over me in circle time, I don't want to do circle time in case I get pee on me again). If this is coupled with less adult support with using the loo then I think we are heading for meltdown or school refusal. I also know from experience with ds that when you push him he tends to go backwards.

I also think that if he is feeling worried about continence this is going to have a big impact on his eating, drinking and fatigue levels as he cannot eat properly when stressed and when his blood sugar is low he is impossible to reason with and can become aggressive.

On the other hand I am not any sort of expert and maybe I don't have the clearest picture of my son's problems - I feel easily overawed by professionals and so I'm asking all you experienced people on here - do you think this is a good idea or not? And if not, how should I handle it?

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TheNinjaGooseIsOnAMission · 03/05/2011 12:48

is this ms school? If this is then no, I would be deeply unhappy with them saying this without having any consultation to a specialist just because they feel he should be dry by Y1 Hmm Do you have involvement from any specialist in asd, continence, ot that would speak to them on your behalf? Have they got the school nurse involved, does he have a care plan?

zzzzz · 03/05/2011 13:20

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FickleFreckle · 03/05/2011 13:49

Ninjagoose, and zzzzz thanks so much for the lovely helpful replies. I hadn't thought about it but yes actually it is a bit Hmm to make a change without a specialist being involved and if they were, they should be willing to talk to me about it. The continence service have been advising us (parents and school) and they have advocated a step by step approach. They have offered resources which haven't materialised so I will chase them up on that and also ask their advice on "free-panting" (love that expression BTW zzzzGrin)

zzzzz that is so reassuring about your ds. Good point, I feel so sheepish about not having trained him but I didn't choose to have a child still in nappies (especially as his NT-with-a-few-issues 3 year old sister is not getting very far with TT either) and I certainly don't think he would prefer to have all this hullabaloo and confusion over his bowels and bladder either.

Would you mind if I adopt your toilet chant (along with the delightful addition by your ds - which is errmmmm an ongoing issue with my son!) It sounds like just the sort of thing that he would like and remember as he loves rhythmic, repetitive speech. We have used picture props but these can cause as many problems as they solve because he either becomes obsessive about the exact positioning or else tends to treat them as mini-dramas without actually thinking about them (he will go through his communication ring with great enthusiasm and considerable dramatic flair, shouting out "That's not it!" and "Somebody hurt me!" and "I'm hungry" as he comes to each pictogram...)

Had better stop typing or I will write another epic - I knew it was the right thing to post on here as I feel better already. I have actually been in tears several times over this issue and now feel I can see a glimmer of light. :)

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SparkleRainbow · 03/05/2011 13:51

This is not a decision that should be beinmg made by the school, whether it is a ms or a ss. Changing his toiletting needs is a decision to be made by his parents, with advice from his doctors. I would politely point this out to the school, explaining that you know they are meaning to help, but you have a prescribed system and work with your dc doctors to develop this futher to greater independence when medical advice supports this. Also you describe a certain seat and footstool he has at home, he needs this to be available in school, and introduced to him there, so school has a responsibility to fund this......when you think he is ready to take this step.

I am a primary school teacher myself, and the mum to a dc with physical disability which affects his toiletting. The school have the best of intentions I am sure, but this is just simply not their call to make.

zzzzz · 03/05/2011 14:25

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auntevil · 03/05/2011 14:43

zzzzz - are we chanting or are we singing to any particular tune? Grin
I'm watching this post with interest as i sent DS2 (6) in pull-ups to school today. He has had a bad weekend. I just handed his teacher a bag with pull-ups, wipes, nappy sacks etc. She was fine and said 'no problem' . So, anything that is toilet related and i lurk, picking up any advice along the way.
FickleFreckle - i have 3 DS who have " bowel patterns are still all over the place." Empathy is winging it's way to you. If it's any consolation, our gastroenterologist thinks that bowel control will come in time, and that any progress, which it looks like you are making, shows that the whole process is coming along. IMO, don't rush what is already happening naturally.

zzzzz · 03/05/2011 17:17

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intothewest · 03/05/2011 19:16

well done to your ds for making a massive step forward - Yes we have been there too- My ds has just about got the hang of staying dry Grin -but it's been a long journey ...and we still have a way to go !

Do not let them talk you into anything that you're not happy with.From what you've posted it seems as though you are doing the right thing.Just because someone says they'd like him to be toilet trained by year 1 doesn't mean it's going to happen (my ds is year 2)

I would say keep doing what you're doing- The continence service were helpful,but in the end it will be down to your son WHEN he is ready. Good luck.

EllenJaneisnotmyname · 03/05/2011 20:26

This is one of the things I love about MN. Despite knowing lots of DC on the spectrum locally, my DS is the only one who has toiletting problems. I thought it was only my DS who still was still so unreliable pooing. He is hypo-sensitive, too but got the hang of peeing quite quickly. He's 11 now and still not quite got there with pooing. Sad

Marne · 03/05/2011 20:50

Hi Fickle, i have 2 dd's on the autistic spectrum,

dd1 (Aspergers, low muscle tone, hypermobile) was potty trained when she started school but would not sit on the toilet due to poor balance and fear, eventually the TA at school managed to get her to sit on the loo whilst holding on to the TA. She's now 7 and when using a big toilet has to hold on to the bathroom door or a rail (when using the desabled toilet)

Dd2 (hfa, hyperlexia, severe language delay) was slightly trickier to train, she didn't seem to know when she needed to go and didn't care about being wet, we had everything in place for her to start school in nappies and then we had one last try at toilet traing and cracked it, we sat her on the loo every hour, after days of nothing she finaly did a wee on the loo and something must have clicked, we managed to get her dry a week before starting school, she's had a few accidents but thats mainly due to the TA forgeting to take her to the loo every hour, she wont ask to go so needs to be taken or reminded to go. She's still in nappies at night but i'm not too bothered about that, hopfully it will happen in time.

FickleFreckle · 03/05/2011 22:42

Wow I feel so much better being able to discuss this on here :) :)

I've had so much to think about, I'll post more tomorrow when I am less knackered (went out tonight to my PND support group so am feeling like a different person than I was this morning with all this support).

Just a brief update: I spoke to the teacher after school and she is adamant that this is the right and necessary way to go and that ds will not find it distressing. She did however say that he will be put back into training pants at lunchtime. She was warm, understanding and reassuring as always (they are lovely in that classroom) - BUT I think they are wrong and I also think they are not listening to me. As if to underline this ds said to me on the way home that his trousers got wet when he was "cleaning his car" and he got upset "It was a scary day". I took him for a pee later and his underpants were wet. He was unable to tell me when they got wet or why or the connection between that and nothing coming out of his penis into the loo.

The teacher did say that taking away the training pants was only a continuation of the policy followed before and that it had been discussed with me. However I think he had been getting very stressed before and the toileting was part of this - so stepping it up a gear is madness. She has agreed that we will give him a week to settle in so I have a bit of time to think about where to go from here.

Incidentally I asked ds to show me how he went to the toilet at school (to see if he could replicate this supposed independence here) and he sat on the loo with his trousers still on. I asked him if this was really what he did and he said in a loud emphatic voice "I've been toilet-training for a hundred years - I know what I'm doing." I wonder where he got that from Hmm

I also have an ongoing worry about ds not eating enough at school and getting low blood sugar. He has always had an amazing appetite - goodness knows where he puts it as he eats like a horse and isn't at all overweight. He is going through a growth spurt at the moment. School have asked me to put less in his lunch box as it takes him forever to eat it. The problem is that the very limited selection he has is a fraction of what he would eat normally - and at home he is not a slow eater, in fact we are always trying to stop him wolfing his food! He would never just have a fruit snack in the afternoon but he would have to have toast or something with it. So I think low blood sugar is affecting his behaviour and comprehension too. We have agreed that I can put a small carbohydrate snack in for him to have but I still think there is going to be an issue about him being too stressed to eat. Anybody else have this problem (Or am I hijacking my own thread?)

Well I am going to go to bed and ponder all the wise words you have given me - thanks so much for sharing and will say more in the morning.

goes off singing "pee-pee down" softly to herself Grin

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zzzzz · 03/05/2011 23:24

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Marne · 04/05/2011 19:59

We have had issues with dd2 with eating, she now eats in the classroom with her TA (instead of the hall), sometimes she goes all day without a drink which makes me Angry as this usually resaults in a water infection (UTI), i always take food with me when i pick her up so she can eat on the way home.

FickleFreckle · 08/05/2011 22:08

hello again everyone, have been away mulling over all the things that have been said (and thanks so much everyone who has shared their stories, it means a lot to me) I hope no-one will mind if I don't reply to individual posts as so many helpful things have been said and I am SO knackered (dd has a bad cold and is being even more exhausting than usual - she can be as much work as ds in her own way and on my gloomier days I start worrying about ADHD )

What this has highlighted for me is the need to get more medical input for ds. The continence service has been giving advice but were not consulted for this change in toilet plan. My doctor has been prescribing Movicol after their recommendation but has only been treating the constipation not involved in toilet-training. What nobody has actually addressed is the issue of what ds can feel and control or his co-ordination issues. (He was referred to OT at 3 but they found nothing wrong contrary to what nursery, home and school have all commented on). It is clear to me that his awareness/control is very little and that his co-ordination and weak hand grip mean that he does need complete 1:1 support. But no medical professionals other than the continence nurse have been involved - I don't suppose anybody thinks there is any point.

So, where do I go from now? Do I make an appointment to see my GP or ask to be referred through the continence service? What do I say? I feel as if I have been fobbed off so much in the nicest possible way and I don't know what I should be asking for. (Am very sleep deprived right now so am not thinking very clearly anyway) I don't want to alienate people, but...

anyway sorry for ramble, will try to get dd to sleep again, see you all in the morning...:)

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