What happens if you get a statement and your son doesn't want interventions

[bigbobble]

I have name changed for this. I have an 8 year old Aspie who had very little support at school for things he was struggling with. Now he has a statement and a TA and various programmes and he just wants to be left alone!

I think part of the problem is that, whereas before he would be left to his own devices and would not follow the lesson and would just write two lines and stick his book in his desk, he now has a TA who will help and check and encourage him to do more.

She is also a little intense but to be fair to her she has been plonked at his desk with no 'getting to know you' time.

So the problem I have is that we now have the time and personnel to try out some of the strategies suggested by people over the last two years but he doesn't appear to want to do anything which might make him look different.

His TA is feeling under pressure and arguing for less intervention as it might 'overwhelm him' but I think this is because he is making it clear to her that he doesn't want to spend time with her. Of course, that is not a helpful attitude when you're arguing with the LA to get his provision in place.

Any ideas?

can the ta be introduced gradual so he can cope with the change? you could ask for a review and ask if the ta hours can be added to by 10mins a week till he gets his hrs he is entitled to.

Would the TA be able to work with him in a small group rather than 1:1? (maybe theres another child who may need a little extra help in his class?), i guess its hard as at the age of 8 he doesn't want to be seen as different or needing extra help. My dd1 (7) also has AS but at the moment is getting no help (has no statement) but i'm not sure how she would handle having extra help as she preferes to go it alone.

Ds1 works as a group at school, it might me more helpful for the TA to take a couple of the non-disruptive but less able kids onto the same table and work with them all. Then your Ds won't feel like he's being picked on

Well he needs intervention, thats the bottom line. My typical kids don't want to go to school because its boring and holidays are more fun, but they still have to go. What the child ideally wants to do and whats in the child's best interests are rarely the same thing SEN or no SEN.

I hate the 'overwhelm' argument, its a cop out. Overwhelm means I don't know what to do so I am not going to bother trying.

So basically the problem is he doesn't want to be singled out - well the TA could pull him out to a corridor or quiet room and work with him where no-one could see. That would be one solution although not ideal.

The TA also does not appear to have the skills or training necessary. Not surprising, few get much training. She needs to build his interest in her by just playing stuff he enjoys and pairing herself with activities he sees as fun. Then when they have a rapport she can introduce the 'work'. She needs to be working with a set behaviour and reward plan designed by someone with ASD expertise eg using his interests as motivators and rewards. Does he have a token system so if he does some work he gets a reward / points towards a reward etc? That way she can motivate him to do the work.

Some children with ASD will do maths, english, art etc all using their favourite interest eg pokemon. Again thats not a long term solution but it can be a way to get started.

Also does she know when to fade in and out? Good TAs can almost appear like class TAs as they can fade out when needed and so its not like they are obviously glued to the one child. Can he learn in small groups? If so why does she not take a small group with him in it and then he is doing the work and not being singled out. If he can't learn in a small group then that is a good target to teach him to take instruction in a small group.

We do ABA and our tutors are well trained to do all of this and as a result it works well. DS is 4 and he has already been taught how to work in a small group and large group - he has specific targets that have been built systematically eg with his 1:1 fading back bit by bit until now she can often stand outside the room. Of course schools and TAs don't necessarily get that a TA standing outside the room is a success, but the aim should not be that he has a TA forever, but the TA is used to teach him to do it without the TA IFSWIM.

I think you need to approach this as a training issue for the TA - what training has she had / the teacher had? Who is setting the programmes? Is it an autism specialist teacher? Does the outreach team need to come in and demonstrate and work alongside the TA? Do they need to set up clear systematic programmes which the TA can follow? What supervision will the TA have? Who can she go to if she gets stuck? How long does she have to wait for the autism specialist to come in again?

The starting point is how to motivate him to do the work, how to reward him when he does it, and how the TA can gain control and get him to follow her instructions. These are things that the TA should be having guidance on setting up. You can't expect a TA to know how to do this without training and supervision. So I would be making a PITA of myself to the local autism team because otherwise this is money down the drain. Alternatively, the school could buy in supervision eg from a private consultant or ABA (probably unlikely but as more schools become academies I suspect more and more will ditch the LA services as they are often pretty poor quality).

When a 1:1 is well trained the singling out is less of an issue. I know my DS is younger and less aware but his ABA 1:1 is like the pied piper - she is so much fun kids are literally hanging off her legs when I pick him up - they all want to be in DS's small group with her.

If another child said I don't like the teacher and I don't want to be in this class the teacher wouldn't stop doing their job or move them, they would have to work through it. It seems to me she is using your child's disability to suggest its too much for him, when really its too much for her.

You fought for the statement and it has to legally be implemented so they need to find a way of making that happen even if it means spending more on training / supervision.

Also don't expect it to happen overnight. Perhaps this weeks target is 3 lines in the book and next week is 4 etc, just slowly building up and extending the expectation. For my DS its the reward at the end of it thats crucial - if we get that right he will sit for longer and longer eg at 4 he will now work for 15-20 mins and concentrate / follow instructions which is about age appropriate level and he is severe ASD. It has taken 18 months of ABA to get to that point. When we started it was less than 5 seconds.

If the TA is shown how to take data and monitor progress against set targets broken into small steps that should also motivate and reassure her that progress is being made even if it is only tiny steps.

Wow thanks for this Agnes. I agree precisely with what you say but the problem we have is that the ASD team have been in and they are useless, really worse than useless. They suggested visual timetables and left!

The woman from the ASD team (an ageing teacher who told me that the IDP on ASD meant that she 'had to' now use techniques based 50% on the child and 50% on generic strategies ) has completely fallen for the TA'S 'let's not overwhelm him' line as supporting the failure to implement the statement.

In fact it's now become the LA's excuse to the LGO - we were deliberately not implementing provision for his sake!

The TA has absolutely no experience of being a TA in any form. She told the school that she had been working with disavantaged/disaffected youths somewhere else and that her teenage son is on the spectrum. He has no dx and she seems to have no experience with younger

Yet she has very strong ideas about what she thinks DS needs and she is very opinionated. I bought some books on recommendation of a child psychologist and took them in as I thought would help her with ideas but she just rejected them out of hand.

I have also told her that if she thinks he is stressed by the intervention than he needs it to be more subtle and discreet and that she should spend time getting to know him.

But she makes me depressed every time I see her. This is her first day back after the break and I feel miserable after ten minutes with her. You are right - it has become about her. On the last day of term, after a meeting with the OT, she started crying to the other TA about how no one speaks to her at school etc etc and how it's all too much for her. Yet her answer to this is to argue that she needs to do less with him.

I have tried very hard to get her on side but the problem is that what she says is very attractive to everyone else - school, LA, 'experts' etc because it means everyone can justify doing less. So, it's much easier to take the word of someone who has known him for a matter of weeks than mine.

For example, he will complain about being withdrawn to have a break from class or do something with her but will do this happily with the other TA he knows well but who only does a few hours in the afternoon with him. That TA is super - really fab, seeing he was tired yesterday when they were supposed to be doing social communication 'work', she took him out to the school climbing frame where they chatted to each other about holidays and asked each other 5 questions each about where the other was going, and what they were looking forward to etc.

Agnes, I agree that "If the TA is shown how to take data and monitor progress against set targets broken into small steps that should also motivate and reassure her that progress is being made even if it is only tiny steps" but truly, there is not one person in the whole of the LA - EP, S

Personally, I wonder if you should simply tell the school (and the TA) that THIS is the provision he needs, and if she is unable to comply and do the job properly, then perhaps another person that CAN will need to be found. After all, the TA should have the intelligence to realise that at that age, just because the child is resisting the assistance doesn't mean the assistance is not needed ... it means she needs to be more creative and intelligent in applying that assistance. In short, she needs to learn to think outside the box in order to provide the outlined assistance as per the statement.

Thanks Triggles, that is a good point. I will raise it with school.

Aarghhh they are so useless. That sums up our ASD team too.
But the statement is a legal document. Hadn't realised got all the way to LGO guess this has been going on a while

What evidence do they have he is overwhelmed other than non compliance.
FFS my son is 4 and has 35 hours a week of 1:1 and he thrives on it.

You could make this a disability discrimination issue.
its pretty clear they are treating him less favourably because of his disability / having low expectations on behaviour and co-operation.

They would not give up on another child as easily.
Perhaps you should get all the other parents to say their kids are 'overwhelmed' and need to be collected at lunchtime!
Or are they saying when your son goes out in the world its ok for him to tell every potential employer he gets easily overwhelmed when demands are put on him so he needs extra breaks. They need to think about what message they are sending him and where it is leading.

Is another school a possibility?
Can you appeal the statement any time soon and demand better training for TAs / better supervision?
Or request a new assessment and ask for something in the private sector?
Are there any special schools that can provide training and support via outreach? eg could you say you want a different outreach teacher and weekly visits. Or an ABA provider who could come in and show them how its done?

Can you bring in anyone to observe eg demand an EP observation?

It is a difficult one. Because although she is being crap, it isn't really her fault. Its the system which says a 1 day ASD awareness course is enough. Our ABA staff have degrees and months of inhouse training and weekly supervision with every child they work with. So they get results.

Has the LA put it in writing that they will not provide the provision in the statement for his own good and is that what has gone to LGO? Have they provided evidence and reasons eg a report from a psych saying he is overwhelmed?

Perhaps you could get legal aid to judicially review a LA decision not to implement the statement esp if they have not got any evidence to base it on. It might be worth speaking to an education solicitor for free tel interview. Legal aid for JR is in name of the child. It might be worth finding out. Sometimes I think even a one off letter from a solicitor that you will take legal action to enforce the statement is enough to show you mean business and get things moving. Its much harder to get anywhere against the school as governors only have to use best endeavours to meet need. But if LA refuse there should be something you can do.

Probably a long shot though.

Do you have any ABA providers? If you could get an indep provider to say we can provide the intervention or provide training of the TA to make this effective it will be harder for LA to argue its your child who is the problem. Most will usually see you for free initial assessment.

Thanks Agnes, you have given me a very useful approach for this. You are completely right. It is very hard when someone is making you feel like you're ruining your child's life with intervention, but there is no need for intervention to be a chore or difficult if done well.

Indeed, DS is sat in the dining room now with his tutor (he comes home early once a week to see a tutor) laughing like a maniac while he's playing a game with her that he doesn't even realise is 'work'.

You are also right though that this isn't the TAs fault. The school are, frankly, clueless and have not guided her about this and how to effectively support DS and they themselves have been let down by the LA whose support is literally worth than useless.

I don't know of any ABA providers - would they be prepared just to come in and demonstrate and train the TA?

Where would be the best place to look?

Thanks so much for your help.

Bigbobble, I remember your previous thread, sorry. I'm currently a TA for a child with a statement gained in Y4 when all these issues of social acceptance have become important. I'm also a parent of a Y6 DS with his own statement that he gained on starting MS full time.

This school has let the TA go in there, all guns blazing, having her own expectations of what she should be doing, without giving her proper guidance. All the children probably know her as your DS's TA, and he is acutely embarrassed, poor lad. She needs to back right off. She should have spent her 1st week just subtly observing your DS and being an 'extra' helper in the class. She could help all the children on your DS's table without making it obvious she's there for him, specifically. A good TA should be able to help where and when needed, and shouldn't be sat next to one child! Lots of children will go out individually and in small groups for interventions throughout the morning, your DS shouldn't be made to feel he is different in any way. That's just going to exacerbate his problems.

I almost feel this TA has burnt her bridges with your DS. The school are going to have to manage this very carefully to save the situation. (If they have the will to do so.) This TA cannot be allowed to dispute his statement, that is ridiculously unprofessional.

If this TA starts now to back off your DS and become a more general class type TA, but with a subtle 'special interest' in your DS, and starts taking some small group activities rather than individual ones with your DS alone, she may be able to get past your DS's problem with her. This may mean in the short term that your DS isn't getting all the interventions on his statement, but that may not be the priority. It may be that this YA can sometimes act as the class TA leaving other members of staff available to work 1:1 with your DS. There's nothing in his statement, I'll bet, that says 1 person alone can work with him. The school can still turn this situation around, but if there just isn't the will, your best bet may be to look at alternative schools where you can make sure a TA is assigned much more carefully. I know that must seem like a really hard option but if all else fails it must be at least considered.

((((hugs))))

I would echo what Ellen says with a different TA there may be a very different outcome. It is written in dd and ds's statements that the TA's should have qualifications and ASD experience so we have so far managed to avoid your particular difficulty.
Dd's (8 also) TA is great at fading away when dd doesn't need her and her teacher also selected the pupils who share her table so that there is a good mix so there are very able children because academically dd is very bright and there are children who need a bit of nurturing that way dd isn't seen as odd if the TA helps her out because chances are she helps at least one of the others.
Dd's TA doesn't have a space at her table but she does have a wheeled chair that arrives and disappears as needed.
I would say that in yr1 the TA was known as dd's TA now I would say that the TA isn't seen as a TA attached to dd because as dd's confidence has grown she has become increasingly independent of her. In fact her TA told me that the other day dd advised that she went and helped somebody else because she was working with her classmate
I find I am always giving suggestions because I know dd best, dd's TA and teacher take them on board happily because I try and make everything positive and make it clear I'm not criticising. Would the teacher and SENCO be equally amenable?

Thanks for this Ellen and ASDx2. It is really helpful

EllenJ she did apparently start as a general helper for the first week but then she ended up on his table without particular introductions. I'm not sure what has happened today (her first day back after the hols) as I've not spoken to DS yet.

I have raised this with school and I have also told the S&LT who is coming in to teach her the S&LT programme next week that the TA (and school) need guidance on integrating the programme effectively.

DS is on a different table now to the table he was on before but they mixed up all the groups. I'm not sure how the group is made up now but this school sets the children quite rigidly - top table, bottom table etc (they don't call them that but that's what they are).

I agree EllenJ - I wonder if she has burnt her bridges too and I constantly consider moving schools. School have tried very hard since the issue of the statement - the will is there but not the experience and so the TA has been left without support but also left free to impose her own views.

I never thought I'd be complaining about too much 1:1!

I think she's not settled in school very well and so this has become about her and not about DS which as you say is unprofessional.