Are visual prompts for the children or are they really for the teachers?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I'm not against visual prompts, not at all, but I do wonder if a good amount of their effectiveness is simply down to the fact that if a 1:1 or teacher takes the time to print out and laminate a sequence in order to help a child then they will make sure they go practise the sequence over and over.

Is it the practising that makes a difference or the visuals?

I mean, if you didn't have the visuals, but talked through the sequence/story board/visual timetable etc regularly instead, would it have the same effect. Is the visual prompt really just to prompt the teacher?

And shall I start an AIBU thread on this subject on the main board?

Totally agree that it's the repetition (and attitude) that is key to developing the skills, but the visuals (IMO) do work well as a tool to facilitate that development. It's something to focus on and demonstrate (to the child) what's required. Overall I think you need the whole package - the visual, the repetition, and the desire to make it work - before you see any improvement.

Depends on the visual tool, too. Some of those I've used with ds have been effective immediately, others have taken years before he's 'clicked', others no response whatsoever. You go with the flow, don't you?

Is the school still banging on about visual supports, Starlight ?

If it helps, our DS2 has loads of visual prompts and visual aids, and he uses them daily. He is 4yo and can actually read quite well (too well sometimes - as he reads my emails over my shoulder! ) but often the comprehension isn't quite there. He responds sooo much better to the visual prompts and aids.

And they use them for learning skills as well - for example, DS2 doesn't actually "build" things with Legos. He either stacks them up or lines them up in a row (by size or colour or whatever he decides that particular day). But he never builds - he just doesn't understand the concept at all. So the TA at school has built a couple Lego things, taking pictures at each step, printing and laminating the pictures and numbering them. Now, they can sit down with the Legos, and he can follow the pictures to build something and see an end result. A couple different sets of pictures of builds, and while, yes, after a while, it does come under repetition, but at the same time, he'll hopefully begin to understand the concept of building so that he can try something of his own at some point.

We actually have a fair number of visual prompts at home as well - he actually does respond well to them. Not sure if it's repetition or not, but he just seems to be a very visual learner - listening is definitely not his strong point. And while he has a stellar memory for numbers and letters, his memory for concepts and such is much like Dory from Finding Nemo.

StarlightMcKenzie

According to the UK Medical Research Council 10of children have some degree of Auditory Processing Disorder, a listening disability. So the visual prompts and aids are a vital part of their learning.
Not all children are able to follow verbal instructions, and auditory input, so you could be suggesting or promoting some form of disability discrimination. Similar to the phonics only fraternity

dolfrog

What on earth are you on about re promoting disability discrimination?

and

'According to the UK Medical Research Council 10of children have some degree of Auditory Processing Disorder, a listening disability. So the visual prompts and aids are a vital part of their learning.'

How so? I mean, who says that visual prompts are a vital part of the learning of a child with APD?

What if visual prompts further destract them and interfere with their APD and slow it down further therefore making it worse? What if it means they get all their clues from the visuals and therefore never practise their auditory processing which could be improved better without the aids?

StarlightMcKenzie

You obviously know very little if anything about APD

Visual prompts are great=when used properly and faded as appropriately.

The main issue is that they are used with scant logic and on an erratic basis by most people.

Based on what exactly dolfrog.

You obviously know nothing about debate and evidence-based practise, based on your posts on this thread.

StarlightMcKenzi

I am not really sure what you know about but you would appear to be promoting disability discrimination against those who have APD, who have alistening disability, and require visual support to work around their deficits.

Not really what experience you have but it would appear to be very limited

Moondog. I question the use of visuals with ds regularly. But, I use them myself. The Lingle Clock and the Moondog Calendar have been quite remarkable in moving my ds along.

However, there are some instances where visuals have worked for ds, without it being anything at all to do with the visuals.

The green spot, for giving ds a focus of where to sit during carpet time (odd rationale, particularly for ds who never had a problem with this) is great for ensuring that ds keeps his hands 'inside the green spot' and therefore not interfere with other children. I can use the terminology 'keep your hands inside the green spot' when we are in the car, or out and about now as a positive way of saying 'stop hitting your sister'.

The badly drawn storyboard that had to be explained to me by his 1:1 that ds had absolutely no interest in at all, to explain what he had to do during the school play meant that she had gone to enough trouble to explain to ds what he was supposed to do, AND explain it to me, to explain to him. I couldn't get him interested in the pics but he could recite off by heart what he had to do and in what order when I asked him.

At his preschool, the visual timetable served as a reminder to his 1:1 to ensure that ds always knew what was happening next. I knew from home that you just have to tell him and he is fine, but until the timetable was up, it never occurred her to deal with the transition times.

How so dolfrog?

StarlightMcKenzie

what do you need explaining

Two good examples of good and bad practice.

Green spot issue is essentially stimulus control (do you know that expression)

The story board thing sounds ill thought out and rambling.
People often think that the existence of something means (in some magical way) it is good. It isn't.

You get similar with educational staff prinitng out reams and reams of stuff with Rebus or Makaton symbols.I don't understand them by magic, so why should thr kids. It would be easier and more functional to get them reading.

Re the calendar, i'm in transit to Kathmandu (no, really) and guess what is in my suitcase

How anything I have said can be construed as discriminatory?

I don't think you have thought out your arguments very well. I also think you are being very defensive unnecessarily. I am not against visual supports for children, but the visual supports themselves do not raise attainment or enable children to engage with lessons or their environment. It is the way they are used.

It is like saying that Occupational Therapy has helped with my ds' social skills, when it was the fact that they used the hard won OT provision in his statement for another child in his class alongside him. It was the 1 on 1 peer scenario that helped his social skills, not the jumping over a line.

You can't state things as facts without some element of justification.

'Green spot issue is essentially stimulus control (do you know that expression)'

No, I'm sorry I don't. I was very unhappy about this at first because it singled him out - again, but it really is the most useful terminology 'keep your hands inside the green spot' he SO gets, despite the abstract concept.

StarlightMcKenzie

The problem is that ypou have no real understanding of APD.
Those who have APD , me included, require visual information to fill in the auditory processing gaps our disability creates, and I learn much more from visual aide, pictures etc, than i do from verbal information.

So the visual aides help those who have APD to understand waht id happening in clas and may help them to be able to participate, rather than be excluded.

So if you want to make the statement you made as the title of this thread, then you need to take into account the learning needs of others not just yours and that of your own children. We are all different, and we all have different learning needs. Which some on this thread seem to want to ignore.

StarlightMcKenzie

If you take away a teaching aide required by a specific group who have a disability, that is discrimination, as you are deliberately preventing them from learning.

'The problem is that ypou have no real understanding of APD'

How do you reach this conclusion?

I am not suggesting anything is taken away. Where did I say that?

I am suggesting that there is more analysis into why it might work, if indeed it does work. Is it because the teachers act differently, or is it because indeed a badly drawn biscuit IS interpreted by a 2yr old as a biscuit and used when he is hungry to indicate this?

'Those who have APD , me included, require visual information to fill in the auditory processing gaps our disability creates.'

Why?

StarlightMcKenzie
If you had any understanding of what APD is then you would not have asked "Why?"

So the first thing we need to discover is what do you think Auditory Processing Disorder (APD) is.

dolfrog

There is no need to be so passive-agressive. I am not your enemy.
I am challenging some of the assumptions surrounding the benefits of visual supports. I am not suggesting they are of no benefit.

It would be helpful if you would explain why you feel them are so fundamental to people with APD. It would also be helpful if you would explain how they work to help.

Hi Starlight. Going back to visual supports, my DS found them very useful in terms of PECS and choice boards when he was 3 & 4. I had no useful communication with him before then. He then used visual timetables with great effect, although he was quite hyperlexic so the written words were just as useful as the pictures TBH. By 6 he no longer needed regular visual support in school as his comprehension of spoken language had progressed.

But in out of routine situations he found a simple visual timetable very comforting, referring to it often. Eg after visiting grandpa we wanted to visit an old school friend. With a quick hand drawn comic strip style timetable, he coped with the unpleasant (for him) change very well. Velcroed cards would have been better as he would accept unexpected changes if changed and explained in front of him on the strip, but a hand drawn timetable couldn't be so easily changed.

He manages without too much fuss these days (age 11) so long as he gets advance notice of changes, explained at least 3 times. Still not too happy if it's a strongly disliked activity!

I'd say visual support works well when used well, but it needs to be specifically tailored to the child's needs. If they don't need it, don't use it, it just gets embarrassing and babyish. When my DS did need it, it was brilliant.