Somethings really bugging me so had to share (ASD)

[Marne]

When i sit here on the PC i look up and see a photo of dd2, it was taken when she was around 2 months old (one of those photo shoots in boots/pixi photo things), she looks so alert, she looked at the camera when the photographer waved toys around and called her, her eye contact was good and she looks relaxed. At the age of 2 dd2 was referred to paed as she was showing signs of ASD, she was non responsive, poor eye contact and non-verbal, at the age of 3 dd2 was diagnosed with Autism and severe language delay.

The thing thats bugging me is 'when did dd2 become this non responsive child?', when she was a baby she would lie next to me and look into my eyes, she would respond when i called her name and when some one entered the room but at the age of 2 she would not respond to her name or notice things going on around her. I keep going over it in my head (every time i look at the photo) and all i can come up with is the MMR, she reacted to both jabs (mmr and mmr booster/pre school jab), after the booster jab she ended up in hospital after a bad reaction.

Now i don't want to start a whole thread about the MMR argument, i just wanted to share my thoughts about dd2.

She's now 5 and after a lot of therapy will now look into my eyes (briefly) and will respond to my voice, she's doing very well but i can't stop thinking about when it became noticable that she had ASD .

Sometimes when you are on a stationary train and a train alongside starts to move, you can think you are moving - it's kind of observational illusion that you brain interprets 'wrongly'. I have lots of photos/videos of ds1 being very NT and anyone looking at them would think 'now there's a child who happy and developing normally' But although he did not change, his peers around him started to go a period of rapid development - i saw it the second time around with ds2 how quickly all the required skills and abilities come rushing into place with an unstoppable force. I think ds1 was 'left behind' rather than that he regressed and by 20 months comparison with peers became increasingly meaningless.

My theory is that MMR does not cause autism in all children, however it can for some ie those with low immune system. When you take dc for MMR jag you are asked if they have any illness, cold flu in touch with anyone with chicken pox measles etc. If you say no they are given jab if you say yes they have to go back. However what if you dont think they have cold etc (or any of above)??? My ds has severe autism he is 10yo. When he was born wouldnt feed properly, he had op to sort this at 5 weeks. Was back in hospital 2 x after this due to infection which he caught in hospital. He couldnt sit by himself until about 13 months and never walked until almost 5 years. Other than this he reached milestones like building wee bricks etc, could talk say mum dad toast shoes etc, just single words, count count 1 2 3 4. After MMR was unwell, temperature and sick. Never spoke another word to this day and regressed in every way. Comm paed who assessed him told me he had low muscle tone and would be walking by age 2 and fine there after. When went back several times was told definite not autism this was because she'd seen him prior to MMR when he could talk, build wee bricks etc. Anyway, eventually as he regressed i went private for diagnosis, then back to com paed for her to do assessment and give me diagnosis of severe autism. To me i think that my ds had virus still in his system from infections caught after op and when he got MMR it was an overload and this caused his autism. I took him before for alternative treatment to New Hope Centre in Perth, Scotland. The lady who worked there has trained in USA and this is her theory, I totally believe it. How can i have a normal DS who talks etc then after jab it all stops!! Anyway whatever the cause daresay i'll never know and i love him more than life and wouldnt be without him. :)

my experience has been the opposite of the person who started the thread. my son was very unresponsive and had poor eye contact as a baby, but his eye contact is excellent now (age 4) but his autism is much more pronounced.

not sure about the MMR, i think its often genetic but still worried after thinking it was at 2.5 that he started not hitting those milestones and we really noticed differences ,we did notice differences before that to our other two Nt dcs but shrugged it off thinking every baby is different so doesnt mean anythings wrong. strangely im A rhesus negative and had the anti D jabs so this thread really making me wonder , i would think its possible an amagamation of all the circumstances , the genetics the jabs , it could be anything i guess a bit like what does start cancer in one person and not another ,anything could trigger it but its there kind of often dormant in the background and then outside influences bring it out unless your dc is severe and obvious from birth, my DS was a baby that cried a lot but that in itself signifies nothing i had another NT baby that cried all the time too with colic and another that was a good sleeper n feeder from day born who never cried

Hi Marne.

Thought I should put my point across, although i've not had time to read the whole thread so you my point may have already been made.

My dd(4.5 and possibly ASD) DID have the vaccinations separately. This was mainly due to an aunt of mine who works with children with behavioural issues etc and was hearing stories from so many parents who had no doubt that their child changed after having the MMR jab. I almost felt as if I had no choice and although rather pricey, we went ahead with the separate vaccinations.

As i've just mentioned my dd does show quite a few autistic traits and definitely has a language delay. She didn't start showing these signs really until she was around 2. Her eye contact is actually very good and she's not mad on routine. However, she is very repetative and her social skills are rather poor(over excited and bouncy). I have to say that I had more concerns when she was 2 months old and had her multiple vaccinations in her arms and legs. This is all in 1 day and it felt wrong at the time that somebody so small should be taking this amount of drugs into their bodies. For the next few days she was unresponsive and almost looked drunk. I looked into her eyes and it was as if a light had gone off. She did go back to normal after a few days, but in my gut I felt like something had changed from that day on.

So I really don't know where I stand with it if i'm being honest. All I know is I did what I thought was best and dd may still have ASD.

I am doing an OU course in autism at the moment and on the resources there is a clip of one of the first diagnosed children in britain who was diagnosed in the sixties. He had the regression from being sociable and having eye contact to regressing into his own world. Obv this was in a time well before the MMR.

DS has always been the same really. The majority of his photos his eyes are looking to one side, he always liked to be held with his back to you or staring into your armpit and still prefers this now. He has always had sensory issues (would even have his milk at fridge temp), has never been a good sleeper, always had different play to his peers, etc.

I think it's natural to wonder about the causes, what was it that made your beautiful baby autistic. For me I had a bad pregnancy with hyperemesis and pushed to be given anti sickness meds, am also negative blood group. I think there is always something there, it is part of that motherly guilt we all have in abundance.

I Blame the MRI too... Even though I know I'm probably being silly. But DS regressed at 3.5 just after his booster.

Noone knows why so I think blaming it and having something to blame makes it easier to accept

Marne - I really feel for you and that is the topic that I had only recently let go of.

DS1 had the MMR at 13 months without any reactions to it, he never regressed but only slowly progressed after he started walking around the same time as the MMR. I dont think MMR has cause his issues nor made it worse, I am more worried about the repeated doses of antibiotics he took for the re-occuring ear infections, and I am talking 20 7 days doses up until he was 1. Have not given the booster not because I worry of the side effects but I worry it may put him off going to the docs.

DS2 however had all vaccinations and up until 6 months he even had the 5 in 1 (I thought thats better than take him for the singles so often) and also the MMR and I couldnt name a more NT boy I know. His immune system wasnt great either but not as bad DS1 and only had 3 ear infections in the last 2 years.

I have finally recently told myself that the MMR is not to blame and stopped looking at babies photoes and videos of DS1, DH genes (isnt it always DH fault) have been inherited and he will always say 'I was exactly the same when I was his age,my agenda, my interest, my choices and life wasnt easy when someone tried to implement rules on me and still isnt; the only difference is that he had more speech and language which is the primary impairement of DS1 paired with delayed social skills.

@blueshark - is there a theory that repeated doses of antibiotics can cause asd? never heard this before but DD1 has also about 15-20 courses of antibiotics for ear infections until she finally got her first set of grommets (at 17 month)...

ChocJunkie - Yes, there is a theory that hearing problems (caused by repeated ear infections) cause ASD symptoms - which is what a number of alternative therapies try to cure (including my favourite Auditory Integration Training)

My Ds has never had MMR or antibiotics (he's allergic to penecillin lol!) yet still shows autistic traits strong enough to make school impossible. He has had measles at 4 but all his eccentricities were clearly there long before that, ie freaking if anyone other than me hugged him as a baby etc.

I think in our case it's a genetic thing (together with the casein theory) and severe malnourishment in his first year of life, (caused by cassein).

I also think there are several causation factors, from age/drinking status of the father, environmental toxins on the fetus, overload on the immune system, genetics, food intolerances etc. I don't believe autism is a "spectrum" of the same condition but rather feel strongly that eventually science will untangle it all to discover a series of similar but distinct conditions with different successful treatments depending on the causes of those specific conditions. The sheer range of the impact on individuals under the current classification makes me wary of it all being truley the same condition, given how little neurobiology science has uncovered to date.

Ellen's descriptions of changelings made more sense than some of the more bizarre modern "theories" floating around the internet!

Definitely agree that autism is not a spectrum of the same condition, I think this might have been plausible in the early days (60's/70s) but experience has shown the sheer range of children being diagnosed with ASD makes it very hard for anyone to believe there is a single causal factor of any kind

thanks Indigo for answering the question. Since the ear infections stopped (none in the last year and a half) he has been a different person with improved eye contact and initiating social interaction.

Yes, the AIT resolved most of his issues (we have few more months yet to see more improvements) and he has been a different boy since but the years of having his speech supressed meant he is delayed socially as well hence has a lot to catch up and learn. AIT and the wonderful ABA consultant Starlight recommended to me have really made my son come a long way.

I def recommend the AIT assessment if your DD had a lot of antibiotics.

I think ds2s regression was linked to the mmr.
But I think that is pretty bloody unusual and it doesn't matter. He is who he is. If finding a 'cause' helps then great. If not... Not sure what it matters.

What ifs just make you crazy

I suppose it makes more sense to be a series of related disorders with different causes, as the presentation is so, so different in all the people with a spectrum DX. Thanks bochead, willow, food for thought.

BTW, I don't think they actually are changelings! Away with the fairies, maybe!

All very thought provoking I must say!
I don't really believe the MMR caused DS1 to have an ASC but I still found it difficult taking DS2 for it.
If I am totally honest the main reason I want to know is because I am always worring DS2 is going to 'change' and it has put me off having another child (that and the age factor). I hope that doesn't sound awful. I adore DS1. It won't change him if I was given a reason for it. I just couldn't inflict more emotional pain on myself. Selfish? Possibly.

I don't think the MMR caused ds's ASD, as doing all the history and developmental stuff for his diagnosis kind of made us realise that a lot of the signs were there very early on.

Weirdly though I have a strong gut-feeling not to give it to dd. She's now 2.2 and I have booked it on three separate occasions and then cancelled.

It could well be that of my three dcs, she is the only one that has been clearly nt and I can't face the thought of losing her. I love watching all her imaginative play, I love her endless conversations and demanding nature and her desperation to get to toddler group to interact with other children. Before I had her, I had no idea how much my dses (particularly ds1 obviously) had never done. Ds2 has traits, but not enough for a diagnosis and if I'm honest, I think a lot of them are learned behaviours from having a very dominant older brother with ASD.

One thing I have learned over the past 9 years is to trust my gut instinct more though and for the moment that's good enough for me. I'm not sure this feeling will last forever. I think I may feel that when she's a bit older and has a fully developed immune system I might get her immunised, but for the moment it just doesn't feel right at a very fundamental level.

Logically speaking, our family is riddled with autoimmune disorders on both sides, plus a lot of ASD on one side and a little on the other and I think if I delved deep enough this could be the source of my unease about immunisation and overloading the immune system.

I do wrestle with myself though, hence booking the appointment three times. I worry a lot about her catching measles and either become seriously ill herself or passing it onto another child who couldn't be immunised for health reasons and would be highly vulnerable.

Ellen, that changeling theory is really interesting and makes a lot of sense with regards to how people used folklore to explain things they didn't understand. I had a bit of an obsession with fairy changelings when I was a child as I was the black sheep of our family and used to wonder if I was one.

This is an interesting thread. DS1 had the seperate jabs, only because it was all in the media at the time so I went down that route. He had his dx when he was 6 , so I know the MMR didn't cause his ASD, BUT I can't bring myself to give DS2 the MMR. He's 19 months now and I've had about 10 letters to take him in for it since he turned 13 months.
I also had anti-D as I'm O neg and the boys are ?positive.

I had anti - d too.
There are a lot of us aren't there?

I refused anti d with dd and she has had no vaccinations.

She has shit immune system and inexplicable respiratory collapse a couple of times a year.
I know I did the right thing with her.
My dc have peculiar immune response.

My DS was a perfectly normal (in fact very easy) baby who slept alot. He had all the normal vaccinations as a baby including MMR. But a friend of mine ended up with her (perfectly healthy) daughter in intensive care within 24 hours of having one of her vaccs as a small baby, she was very seriously ill, (nearly died) and she is registered SN and SEN to this day as a result of that illness.

When my DS was two he had chicken pox and had a series of very scary febrile convulsions shortly afterwards. He was never quite the same child after that - and by the time he was four he was a really quite challenging child, in spite of being fundamentally 'good' and kind and polite. He was a nightmare non-sleeper, no concentration, could be hyperactive, very easily over-stimulated, no control over his anger/emotions etc, almost non-existent short term and auditory memory, and he was diagnosed with ADHD when he was 7. (he is not an extreme case by any means) I am quite sure he underwent some kind of neurological change as a very small child, and I think it was after the convulsions.

Although I don't particularly attribute his ADHD to vaccines, I didn't take him for his pre-school booster as I was sufficiently nervous based on the things I've said above, to be concerned about what his immune repsonse would be.

It's interesting to see some linking in thoughts between many posts. I think Shazian and Pagwatch and others mentioned the immune system. I'm thinking that this plays a huge role in how your child develops if it is over stimulated at the wrong time. My DS2 (NT - but a fine line!) developed HSP (Henoch Schonlein purpura) after his pre-school booster. This is an auto immune condition that even government literature says can occur after vaccinations and immunisations. Prior to this he was bright, lively and vivacious. It knocked him for 6. The list of problems he has had since include: perthes, chronic asthma, food intolerances, constipation followed by chronic diarrhoea. He is now quiet, lacks confidence and sits on the sidelines and watches. He is often in a little world of his own. His pre-school agreed with me, he didn't come out from his pre-school booster the same child that he went in - so not just a mums point of view.
If you think of how many of us have tried CF/GF diets and those that have highly sensitive skin to fabrics etc, i can't help thinking that some bodies just can't cope with their systems being overloaded. It may not be what's in the injection, just that the body can't cope with it and 'fights or flights'.
I'm waiting for the nice warm summer months - free of cold/hayfever etc etc to make a decision as to whether to give DS3 his pre-school booster. It's a tough call

Looking back, my DS was always autistic. But he ate everything and anything when we started weaning him onto solids.

But as soon as he had MMR he came down with terrible D&V. It lasted weeks. He couldn't even keep water let alone Dioralyte down and if he hadn't have still been BF he would have been taken into hospital and sedated on a drip.

After that he refused most solid foods. Even now at almost four he eats no protein-rich substances. No meat, no fish, no eggs, no cheese - just milk. And dry carbs.

So now the dieticians and Paeds say that it is his restricted food-intake which is causing the bowel / gut problems and pain. And I can't refute that. Despite the fact that he weaned perfectly well.

I do believe that the triple jab aggravated his problems and that he should not have had it.

There does seem to be a lot of us that had anti-d, both my dd's have ok immune system, dont really get sick anymore than most nt children (get d&v once a year and maybe a couple colds), dd1's diet is not great so i give her muti vits to boost her immune system (not sure if it really works).

what is anti-d?

Its the injection they give you during pregnancy if you are a different rhesus blood group to the baby you're carrying.