Interesting post I think you may all be interested in regarding exclusion of sn kids in primary schools....

[Blossomhowl]

here

Would really like to hear from mums on this board what they make of this! I am tbh!

I thought it represented both sides of the arguement nt and sn. Obviously as my ds is sn i wouldn't want him to be excluded for something out of his control. But i can see how unfair it would look to nt children/parents. It wouldn't change his behaviour and possibly make it worse due to being out of routine. Nt children would be excluded for the behaviour of my ds thats not necessarily fair either again nt children have problems that show up in their behaviour too. So for me exclusion isn't the answer for either.

I do think that a big problem with ms schools is that they try to normalise children that can't be normalised. So the benchmark is always NT and the child always has to try and be NT, or aim towards it. IN the case of someone like my son that is utterly ludicrous, but he's not in ms anymore than god so can nw be himself! IU think often they would get further working withm rather than against the children with SN.

blossomhowl- I think that what zebra said has been a bit misinterpreted (although there was a slightly unfortunate choice of words which made me draw breath a bit , but I decided on re-reading wasn't so bad ) DS1 was very disruptive for ms- mainly because he can;t sit still and saw no reason why he shouldn;t stand on tables. Hmmmm. Attempts to contain him often became physical by the sounds of it. He;s so much better in special where the environment is suited to him (high door handles so he can't run out for the room for example) and he can begin to settle, concentrate and learn. And room for him to move without bumping into people and lots of understanding adults on tap, and access to so many things.

I could have cried at his last annual review because of the difference in the reports between that one and his last ms one 6 months previously. You wouldn;t have known it was the same child. The ms one sounded like a monster, the special school one I recognised (and had me laughing as it was so funny and warm, and - for want of a better word, loving).

I agree with you SoBlue; so much of it comes down to the mainstream schools not having resources or training to cope. There are not enough statements issued or support provided to prevent these kinds of situations arising. But I can understand that parents of NT children would be concerned about the effect on their own child's learning.

I am not looking for a fight at all Batters, far from it.

I am just so fed up of people stereotyping children with sn when my ds has children in his class that throw chairs, swear at teachers etc that do not have sn but behavioural and emotional problems, very different.

Anyway the reason I have linked it here is not to cause an online row but to bring it to the attention of the sn board as lots of the mums only use this part of MN.

blossomhowl, I do agree with you on most points but to be honest the emotional and behavioural difficuties can also included SEN children.

There is a difference some of the children end up going to EBD schools but have the diagnosis of asphergers, ADHD, etc. There is a fine line, my ds does have descriptions of saying that ds has EBD but to be fair the full diagnosis is still a long way off, as ds fits all the avenues.

I think we all know the difference between children that have not had a good home life that this can make them difficult.
SEN children can display some of the same behaviours.
As for the comment made on my thread from another mumsnetters. I do believe it's when you have been in this postion yourself, you realise how other people view your child very differently and don't really understand the difficulties the parents with SEN children face regarding the right kind of schooling. larsxx

You may be interested to see what IPSEA has to say:-

IPSEA estimates the true figure for exclusions (permanent, fixed term and informal) of children with SEN (with and without statements) is in the region of 40,000 children at any one point in time. We have consulted independent experts who agree with our estimate.

The 2002 Audit Commission report referred to the overrepresentation of children with emotional and behavioural difficulties in exclusion statistics, but noted that little is known about the link between exclusions and other categories of SEN.

IPSEA receives around 4,500 calls a year from parents/carers of children with SEN. Approximately 20% concern children who are threatened with being, or have been, excluded from school (permanently, for a fixed term or informally). Our casework records show that children are usually excluded as a result of their needs not being met and the Advisory Centre for Education (ACE) has reported similar findings.

Usually, these are children whose needs arise from conditions which do not in themselves predicate difficult behaviour (e.g. dyslexia and many of the language and communication problems) but where the frustration they experience when their needs are not met causes challenging behaviour and/or anxiety and depression.

Alternatively, they are children whose needs arise from conditions which do give rise to behaviour which can be difficult to manage in the classroom (e.g. attention deficit and hyperactive disorder and some autistic spectrum disorders), but which can be helped given appropriate provision.

Unfortunately, the tabloid press tends to view 'special educational needs' as a trendy liberal euphemism for violent and disruptive pupils. In fact, only a very small proportion of children with SEN are violent, although many do present teachers with behaviour management problems, particularly if their learning difficulties are not properly addressed.

Parents and carers face a minefield of options and decisions when a child with SEN is excluded. They must find answers to a wide range of questions:

• have their child's needs been adequately assessed and understood to date?
• if there is an IEP, does it contain a sufficiently accurate account of the needs and does it spell out clearly enough the provision to be made?
• would an early Review of an IEP or statement resolve the issues quickly or should they request statutory assessment or a re-assessment, despite the extra time that would take?
• if there is a statement, does Part 3 unambiguously specify the special educational provision their child should receive?
• if so, is this provision actually being delivered?
• would the excluding school be more suitable if more support was available for the child and/or more training and support provided for the staff?
• if not, are there other schools which would be more suitable?
• how long is the exclusion likely to last and how do they get interim provision for their child?

The child's best interests require all these questions to be asked. But others also arise, some personal (How am I going to look after him during the day? What will the boss say when I ask for time off?) and some political (Is this how the Government expects its Inclusion Policy to work - children being included through the front door one week and excluded out the back door the next?)

And commonly these questions arise against the backdrop of mutual resentment, with parents believing an exclusion to be unfair, being caused by the school's inability to meet their child's needs; and teachers believing that unreasonable demands have been made on them, due to inadequate resources and training.

For inclusion to work, everybody involved has to support it, understand it, buy into it, and be enabled to fulfill their role within it.

Just as schools are often under-resourced to suport it properley, so can other parents be. I am not talking about any individual posts or posters here. Absolutely not. But parents need to have things shared by the school, systems understood, etc, and have some stake in them.

Yes, kids in schools often understand and the parents might not. But how would they, they are at arms length, and no-one talks to them about it, and they (may!) get harangued when they venture to find out and get it a bit wrong!

Blu, you are right that all have to work together. My experience is that I had Lea support working with me as well and even then the school did seem to really not want DS there.
The body language said it all and if the school feel it's too much for them, they should have the balls to own up to it.
Most parents with SEN children, do really try with the schools as show much more imput then other parents I may add.
larsxx

Lars - my ds has a mobility disability, (far less complex to deal with in a classroom in terms of inclusion than any sensory/learning needs, imo!), and I already knoew that the schools that discounted our reasons for wanting a small school with flat access where not the schools for us, even if we had won our appeal. It is no co-incidence that the school who accepted him on exactly the same evidence, have had the SENCO phone up and arrange a meeting within 4 days of us sending back the admission acceptance form!

I watched DS be edged out of a game in the park yesterday because he simply couldn't keep up with the running, and ended up watching from the sidelines, but I am trusting his future school to work with me to help children and their parents understand how he can join in, and to support his self-esteem (currently sky-high - ahem) so that it doesn't matter if he just can't run.

Blu, that's excellent news,that's what I mean ther school are prepared to work around your ds not the otherway round. I'ts so nice to hear of schools that really do want to try and help.

DS's new school seem so more positive and said that will except him and work around him to try and fit in. larsxx