Ok, we're going for a statement, whaddo I need to know?

[moosemama]

Hi,

Just back from ds1's IEP review.

After the first couple of points it completely stalled. It has become apparent that ds is just not producing any work in school, he cannot focus enough to get started and even when he does he only produces a tiny amount compared to his peers. His teachers are really frustrated, because they know how intelligent he is, but can't seem to reach him.

Lots of differing suggestions on how to get him to focus and start work, none of which the teachers felt would help and then I'd had enough. I decide to mention the elephant in the room. The teachers were clearly saying they cannon support him enough and he needs 1-1 so I raised the question of a statement.

The SENCO immediately tried to tell me he wouldn't get one because 'he's not academically behind', (he is in fact still on the same level he was when he left year 2, he was advanced at that age but has made no progress since and he's now in Year 4) so I quoted the SEN Code of Practice and Disability Act, then she said he hadn't been on SA+ for long enough, so I pointed out that this was due to the school not listening and his teachers pointed out that the school failed to support him at all last year. Then she tried saying there isn't enough evidence that the school has tried everything it can and I pointed out my huge, full to overflowing lever arch file and accompanying A4 page a day diary where I have diligently recorded everything. I also pointed out that that's why I always write to the school rather than just discussing things verbally and I have an excellent paper trail.

At this point the lovely inclusion ladies said they agreed he cannot progress any further and will most likely underachieve without 1-1 and they would help us get the evidence together and assess if we have enough. They booked an appointment with the SENCO there and then for tomorrow and will be visiting me at home to put together our side of the story very soon! shock

I don't think it will be easy - in fact I know its going to be a huge fight, mainly because the school has historically been so crap at both supporting him and documenting everything, but at least we are on the right track now.

Am quaking in my boots!

So, I tried to insist that I wanted to apply myself, but the inclusion team and SENCO said the school should do it. I said I didn't want them to as they can't appeal and they tried to tell me they could - but I pointed out that waiting six months while my son's education goes down the pan isn't an option. We left it as dh and I would discuss and decide who should apply and in the meantime they/we would work on pulling together all the evidence.

Am I right in thinking its best for me to apply with the school's backing, rather than that other way round?

If so, how do I make the LEA listen, given that my ds has only been on SA+ since September this year and only dx since January?

Any/all hints, tips or advice greatly appreciated.

You don't sound like you are quaking in your boots at all.

YOu sound pretty on the ball. The statement thing isn't scary it's just labourious.

Don't try to convince anybody verbally. Just do the paperwork and treat it as an impersonal exercise as you can.

Thanks HisWife

I am quaking though, I'm not the most confident person in the world and I really had to stand up for myself and ds in that meeting.

I just want to make sure I've done everything I possibly can to give him the best chance of getting the support he needs. (Like everyone else on here I suppose.)

Have sent dh out to buy some printer cartridges, as I have a tonne of stuff on the laptop that I've never printed out.

We are getting a new SENCO after Easter as well, so it will be interesting to get her take on it all.

The current temporary SENCO has lots of experience and has been on both sides of the process, having both applied for hundreds of statements, but also used to work for the LEA and has sat on Statementing Panels. So she has a lot of knowledge, but seems to come down a bit too easily on the LEA's side for my liking. I don't think she realises how hard we are willing to fight for this.

She didn't disagree that ds needs a statement, but in her opinion he's unlikely to get one - which is worrying.

I'm pretty sure we will have to appeal and then probably tribunal. How do we go about funding that? I was speaking to a friend of mine at the weekend and she says it costs thousands - is that right?

Moose, just came to support you. Agree it doesn't sound like you are quaking at all, it sounds like you are 'right on the ball'.
Am right at the beginning of our 'journey', so have to expereince of where you are, so nothing to add.
But wishing all the best. Am sure the Mn sn guru's will help here.

It's not up to her whether he gets a statment. Come to that, it isn't even up to the LA, it is up to the law, and ultimately you can use it.

That meeting was one of many. You'd be wise to treat them as a check-list rather than the last opportunity to convince the LA. They are, after all, check-list meetings for the LA. There is ALWAYS another meeting, another form of action or a plan B.

Your job is to systematically collect evidence but logging everything and ensuring that everything is written down somewhere even if just in a confirmation letter that you send to someone to clarify their spoken words.

Good luck with it all.

pah! I was fed the "won't get a statement baloney" my lad did! Apply yourself, just to keep your right of appeal as if the school do it, they don't have any right to appeal if the lea refuses to assess. All it takes is a quick letter to make the application. I'm convinced they try to delay applying in order to delay having to pay if they can. It takes 6 months even if everything goes really smoothly, realistically if you apply now, it'll be jan 2012 before everything is in place.

you can still apply for the statement too , I did and PP told me that we are more likely if asking for it to be told yest rather than the school doing it , my senco was nice and advised ebven though they were going to do it i should quickly apply asap myself

If school applies you still have the right of appeal to a tribunal should you be unhappy with the decisions at any point. You can always apply yourself with one of the standard letters from IPSEA and the school will be asked for their input at that point anyway. At least you know then the ball is rolling should the school stall. Having said that we are just about to start the process but I am letting school apply as they seem very supportive and organised.

Thanks folks.

I was half expecting the instant "you won't get a statement" reaction, that's why I was ready with my SECOP and illegal blanket policy reply.

I am definitely going to say I want to do the application myself. They didn't seem to understand why I wanted to, so it was left that dh and I would discuss and think about it and let them know. Either way, our ASD inclusion team are great and will help as much as possible.

With the best will in the world, the school must know that they've messed up badly in the past and it would only be natural for them to try and mitigate this in front of the LEA. I do feel like I need to be in the driving seat for this as well as the appeal option.

You need to apply because that means all the communication has to be done with you, which, ulitmately means that you have all the documents and evidence should you need to go to tribunal.

If things are going back and forth between the school and LA, stuff that you need to appeal might get 'lost'.

Thanks beautifulgirls. I thought that if the school applied they couldn't appeal against a decision not to do a SA, but have to wait to reapply in 6 months - or have I got that wrong?

I need to go and do some more reading - its been a while since I first looked into it all any my memory is terrible.

well done moose, you did brilliantly there. No sight of quaking boots from over here If it were me, I'd apply myself, then you are fully aware of all the timescales and when things need to be done by and can chase things up if necessary. Also you don't know what the new senco will be like, she might be one that likes to sit on paperwork for a while, realistically just having someone change jobs is going to delay things I would have thought.

the LEA may mention sa and sa+ but there are no guidelines for how long a child has to be on each level so it's a bit of a red herring that one. As you've got all your evidence of how long it's been without progress, concentrate on that.

That's the problem with SA plus; its all sounds very nice but there's no real oomph behind it so it falls down for children who really do need statements and asap as well.

Apply personally for the statement and do so asap. You would have far more power than the school would in this regard, school cannot appeal themselves if the LEA say no but you as parents can appeal their crass decision. Also school would also need to actually tell you that it has been declined and I would not trust this lot to do that let alone make such an application in the first place. Some schools too can sit on such apps for ages thus delaying them even more.

A child also does not have to be on either SA or SA plus for any particular length of time, a parent can go straight to applying for a statement without either of these being in place.

The SENCO you spoke with has fed you the usual old waffle re child won't get a statement. If I had £1 for every time I had read similar on here I;d have enough money for a plane ticket!.

BTW a friend of mine was fed the same old trash as you have been when child was in primary school. As a result of this secondary school are now putting together a statement application!.

Thanks Ninja and Attila

I know it was the usual nonsense, but its unsettling anyway.

The inclusion team were right on the case and booked an appointment there and then to go through potential evidence with the SENCO. They are keen to push on with the request, so I'm hoping there won't be any stalling or delays.

Its complicated by the fact that ds is currently working at a good level for his age/year, but the teachers said this morning that his achievement is poor compared to his potential and basically he's hardly producing any work to be assessed anyway. They don't have a TA, so can't spend enough time working with ds 1-2-1 in order to get him to get and stay focussed enough, sometimes to even start let alone complete a piece of work. They read out a piece of creative writing he'd done and it was amazing, but there was only one paragraph, whereas all the other children had completed pages. According to one of his teachers, the strongest evidence they have for him needing 1-2-1 support is the sheer numbers of blank pages in his exercise books!

Hi moose. Go get 'em gal!

You know what you are doing and you know you'll get lots of help from here. I'll trot out my usual line, it's not fair, but those who shout loudest get most. You have knowledge of the law and, especially with inclusion behind you, you will succeed. My DS's (really) lovely special pre-school HT told me my DS wouldn't get a statement, too, and that was 7 years ago. He got it and with a bit of adjustment, it was even what he needed.

I've only learnt on here that you can appeal immediately if you apply yourself, and the HT at SS also told me that some LAs take it more seriously if parents apply.

Good luck on the road.

Hi Moosemama,

Statements are not just for academic need; they are also there for social/communication problems as well. His teachers have also advised you that he is not meeting his potential so his abiity to readily learn is affected - this is yet another reason to personally apply for such a document.

Good luck, you will always find a MNer here to help you through this process.

"I thought that if the school applied they couldn't appeal against a decision not to do a SA, but have to wait to reapply in 6 months - or have I got that wrong?"

Even if the school apply, you can still appeal against the LA decision not to do a SA. The school can't appeal - only parents can.

Generally it's still better to apply as a parent because it puts you in control of the process - schools can wait months to 'build a case'.

There's no need to wait 6 months to reapply in any case, except if the LA has already done a SA and you're asking for a re-assessment. Some schools might recommend waiting 6 months to gather more evidence, but it takes about 6 months to go to appeal anyway, so there's no point waiting.

Thanks sugarcandymix. That helps sort it out in my head a bit.

I have had a little chat with ds this afternoon about why he doesn't seem to be managing to get anything down on paper at school and he said in literacy, he just doesn't seem able to put together a piece of creative writing. It starts off ok sometimes (hence the piece they read today) but then he runs out of inspiration and can't go any further.

I'm thinking this is to do with executive function and not being able to organise his thoughts and plan out his work.

How they can begin to assess his levels when he's not actually doing any work is beyond me. What is he doing? Just sitting staring into space all day!

Apparently in maths its because he can get the answers right but doesn't know how/why. This problem has been a bit of a theme since he started juniors last year. I know he's also struggling with understanding how a word problem can actually be a maths question, it just doesn't compute for him.

I asked him if he'd like to have someone come and help him in class and he said definitely yes, if they could help him make sense of it all, as its too confusing at the moment. He also said it would be nice to have an adult at school who would actually listen and take his worries seriously.

Aww, moose, poor DS. The dc I support quite often needs me to just remind him to go on to the next sentence. He'll quite happily write one sentence and just sit there 'with the fairies' until I prompt him. He also needs help organising his thoughts.

Have you tried using simple mind maps to plan a short piece of writing? Or setting, characters, build up, climax, resolution as a story mountain plan? A blank piece of paper can be so intimidating. The DC I support needs help with ideas also, as he struggles with his imagination. Your DS may need someone at school to help him with that, as he may be able to write lovely grammatical sentences but not know what to write about.

Similarly with maths. NT children need maths to be made real, eg questions about sharing sweets to explain division. ASD type DC prefer + - x and / number sentences. It can be really hard to explain what operation you need to be doing in a word question. Perhaps you could sort out the different maths language into sections for him. Eg add, in total, sum, addition, altogether. Subtraction, takeaway, minus, how much more than, how much less than, how much taller than. Multiplication, times, product, if 1 pack costs 5p how much does 6 packs cost. Division, divide, share, etc. Bloody English language!

I know you're not his teacher but just talking through this sort of stuff really helps. DC don't usually remember from just one lesson, but that's sometimes all they'll get b4 the class moves on. Without making home too stressful and school-like, of course.

Hi Ellen

Yes, we use mind-mapping and writing frames, but even then he needs walking through the process each time and he really resents doing it. At home we do a mind map together first and I write it out for him (handwriting is a big barrier to learning for him). Very often he doesn't get past the date or only manages to write the date and WALT by the time everyone else has finished.

His subject matter is pretty much always drawn from one or several of his obsessions. The one they read today incorporated a bit of Pokemon with characters from some of his favourite books. He started off well and did actually come up with a good creative idea for the start of the story, albeit typically computer game-like in style, but then lost his way and couldn't work out how to construct it with a beginning, middle and end. Apparently he also ran out of time, a common problem as it takes him forever to process what's being asked of him in the first place (this is backed up by his WISC IQ results).

With the maths, he's ok with all the different mathematical words. He's struggling with problems like eg:

A train departs at x o'clock and has to travel x number of kilometres to reach its destination. It is due to arrive at the destination station at x o'clock. How fast would the train need to be travelling in km/hr in order to reach its destination on time?

To ds he just can't seem to accept that that's a maths question. To him a mathematical question should just contain numbers and numerical symbols and/or language.

In addition to that, he seems able to compute the answer to questions so fast that he doesn't actually know how he did it. This is causing him all sorts of problems as he can't put down his workings out, or demonstrate an understanding of the process. Give him a mental maths test and its 99/100% every time, but sit him down and ask him to lay out a page of sums and show his workings and you'll be lucky if he completes one.

His teachers are saying they just don't have the time to support ds as much as they already are, let alone giving him additional help with the above problems, hence the need for a statement to get some 1-2-1 support for him in class.

Sounds like you're on top of it, moose. That's quite a complex maths problem for the y5 foundation set I work with. Only one or 2 would get it! They generally get slightly simpler word questions and go through them with a hi-lighter looking for the numbers and words that can turn them into a maths sentence like Cakes cost 45p and Julie buys 12 cakes. How much change does she get from £10? 45p x 12 = £5.40 £10.00 - £5.40 = £4.60

I expect your DS could answer the questions in the maths sentences at the end but would find it hard to know how to turn the words into the maths sentences. It's a hard task for lots of children who struggle with maths but they would probably also find the calculations difficult!

Very hard to sort out in lessons even with 1 to 1. It just means lots of examples and practice. DC on the spectrum find it hard to transfer their knowledge between situations as I'm sure you know, so it almost means they have to practise as many types of word problems as possible to be in with a chance. Same words, different numbers, then they have 'got' that question type. But it's really hard to predict every type of word problem they'll get.

I'm trying to be helpful, but you seem very knowledgable, so sorry if it all stuff you already know. I find it quite frustrating as a 1 to 1 myself. I can help lots in lessons but I need to develop methods so that the DC can answer maths word questions and literacy writing tasks independently as he will have to in SATS. Then I can only read for him, prompt him to keep working and ensure he keeps focussed. Hence usefulness of good planning tools like writing frames and lots of practice of methods. Creative writing tends to get more structured as you progress through juniors with less allowance for free rein imagination. Actually good for your DS maybe?

Cloze works well in some subjects (like science) but so much depends on the flexibility of the teacher. If they have always taught this topic, this way, it can be a bit difficult to get them to change. I need lots of advance planning to get resources ready in time and some teachers' plans are better than others!

Try to make sure any hours you (hopefully) get include some planning time away from your DS. Constant 1 to 1 (even within lessons) isn't good for already poor social skills as it can isolate a DC from their peers. They can rely on the TA too much and fail to build up coping strategies.

Sorry, a bit of an epic! Hope some of it makes sense.

I think that's the hardest one he's had and in fairness, the teacher was new and perhaps misjudged the level. Most of the questions are much more straightforward, but he still struggles if they are primarily words rather than numbers. As you said, he would be able to do the actual maths sentence in a flash, but he struggles to convert the words into maths sentences.

I have downloaded a stack of word maths problems off the net for him, but he's currently refusing to attempt them as they aren't on his homework timetable. [sigh] He will sometimes do maths books (like the Letts Wizard series) for fun in the holidays though, so I think I'll see if I can find a book of word problems - if there is such a thing. So frustrating, as I already have the questions downloaded but he has labelled them as work rather than fun. [is there a steam coming out of the ears emoticon?]

They do tend to send cloze worksheets home for his homework as often as possible, for which I am really grateful, as large chunks of writing are often met with a meltdown, or have to be done over several nights, which again he hates because it doesn't fit the homework timetable.

I actually don't think he will need 1-2-1 in every single lesson. He's highly motivated in ICT and science for example and obviously there's not as much actual long-hand writing to be done in those subjects, which helps. I wouldn't have thought about him not being able to build up coping strategies, so that's definitely food for thought.

He told me today that he feels 'alone' in the classroom. I think its because he has been sat in the centre at the front on the advice of the OT, EP and Inclusion Team, whereas before he sat with his friend and was a lot happier, but harder for the teacher to handle.

I'm not very knowledgeable, I'm just a control freak problem solver and try to look at things from as many angles as possible until I can come up with a solution. Obviously this isn't always possible with ds - hence my frustration. I'm always grateful for other peoples perspectives or suggestions. So thank you for taking the time to talk it through with me.

Felt I was offloading some of my own problems rather than helping you! I can't get my own DS2 to do any extra homework and not much of his set stuff. Home should probably be a safe haven from schoolwork, but when they aren't progressing you just want to do something, don't you?

I know what you mean, I get so frustrated that we have to have the homework battles. Like most/many children with AS, he just wants to put on his PJs and curl up when he gets home from school, but we have to effectively extend the school day by an hour to an hour and a half to get through his homework.

There aren't enough hours in the week to do all the help/support/intervention that I'd like to be able to do with him. Ds2 needs my time for homework and reading as well and very often after they've both done their homework its 5 o'clock and time to start cooking the tea. Its doable, but it shouldn't have to be like this.

I think all children should be able to rest and recover from the school day when they get home, they don't have enough time to just 'be' imho. We didn't get homework until secondary school, we used to go outside and play when we got home, my boys very rarely get time to do that.