I don't think we can go on like this

[bumblingbovine]

Where to start. This going to be long I'm afraid

Ds (6 years old in yr 1) has what you might call "challenging behaviour" and has done since nursery. Mostly this manifests itself at school. Ds has been surprisingly popular so far (given his propensity to hurt other children) but I don?t believe this can continue

Academically his verbal skills are above average, mathse average to above average and has good science knowledge. He still really struggles with reading and writing though.

He does not have a proper diagnosis because of the nightmare it is to get this done in the LEA we live in. I have finally (after a year) have an appointment with an nhs paediatrician for a DISCO assessment next week.

I am unsure as to what his diagnosis would be anyway. He does no seem to fit the Aspberger criteria in that he doesn't do the repetitive thing, if anything he prefers new exeriences and gets bored easily but I suppose it is a possibility. He has seen an EP at school who suggested ASD and supported a referral to paediatrician and an OT who said he had SPD and recommended some things to do. Things have not really improved much though and I am starting to get really discouraged at the lack of progress.

His main problems at school are:
Does not like moving from one activity to another - wails and calls out
Does not like invasion of personal space - lashes out
Will sometimes attack children for no apparent reason (though can usually give some sort of reason , e.g "she had a pen I wanted", "he was crying for nothing" etc)
Will sometimes stand on the tables, particularly in the afternoon when his TA is not there (he has 20hrs 1:1 TA time a week). The school think this is attention seeking
Will sometimes mime threatening behaviour (will mime kicking children on the floor)
Will provoke/irritate other children to get a reaction (
Will sometimes run away wailing and crying if his picture/work etc is not the best (which it often isn't)

The behviour is quite inconsistent in that some days he seems fine, others not.

At home we have had a lot of these behaviours, but tbh in the last couple of years we have found he has gradually improved so that I often don't recognise the school's description of him, though I do still see glimpses of the behaviour they describe.

Dh has just come back from collecting ds having been collared and shouted at by a parent. Last week, apparently DS touched his son's hair (It was Comic relief and the boy had his hair done in a "comic" way). The boy ended up crying because of this and Ds punched him! I don't blame the dad at all for being angry. I am feeling a mix of despair and anger myself.
Ds was punished by spending the whole of lunchtime in the headteacher's office, but it took a while for DS to accept that he needed to apologise. He did in the end and gave the child a card etc but obviously it was too late.

When I asked ds about what had happened he said that the child "was crying for nothing". I was extremely firm in telling him his behaviour was completely unacceptable and that to hit someone for crying was not ever ever acceptable, even if they were ?crying for nothing? The child wouldn?t have been crying if Ds hadn?t touched his hair anyway. I just don?t know what to do anymore.

We are having at least 2 of these serious incidents a week along with lots of more low level disruptive behaviour. We have tried all the punishment/reward stuff and have been consistently withdrawing stuff for each violent incident reported for around 18 months (started in reception) but it is having no effect.

I honestly don?t give a monkeys about the low level disruptive stuff at the moment. I do however want him to stop hurting people. His poor old TA gets hurt regularly as well. How do I help him with this?

Part of me wants to introduce really harsh punishment for every violent incident (not physical punishment obviously but something that he would be really upset about) but I don?t know if that would make things worse or not. At the moment we withdraw scrren time which he accepts too easily for my liking.

I have the Volcano in my tummy book and we have been working on that but to no real avail. The school are supposed to be using social stories but DS often covers his ears and refuses to listen to them ( does that with me too) and the school are beginning to think they are not very useful for DS.

Has anyone managed to get a child with these sorts of behaviour issues to stop being so violent? If so please how?

it sounds like at home the reason your not having so much of a problem is at home hes comfortable stable and you probably have a routine hes happier and thats good at school the older they get the more thats expected behaviour wise the more likely the meltdowns and disruptions and sometimes violent behaviour occurs.

its very frustraiting i know but if he has this test and there wrong well at least you know its ruled out , i wouldnt introduse really harsh punishments atm as if he is as or asd he will not get it especially often if the punishments run for over a few days, my ds still has meltdowns the violence is now less frequent because hes getting the support from understanding people before he was like a little ship lost at sea bobbing about not understanding what the hecks going on ,

my ds is at ss they prefer to do positive things not punish they tell the dc its wrong and why they encourage them to take some time out and calm down the school could make a quiet room for him where when very upset instead of hitting he can go to and use pecs to let them know he wants to go there and is upset/angry ect,
then the ss give him golden time every day just for 15/20 mins to reinforce hes made correct choices rather than being negative when hes done something he shouldnt im not allows to deal with it at home they deal with it in school and then its forgotten, they could ask the outreach team to come in and give some advice.

right now you feel upset and angry if you do get a dx of as or asd you are bound to be worried and go through all sorts of emotions so come back they MN ladies on here are great for giving good advice and read up on as/asd its a soectrum meaning there all different so he could still be on it, tony attwoods book the complete guide to asperger syndrome might help good luck keep us posted

Thanks for the advice

I will wait for the nhs DISCO assessment and see what they say. It is very difficult at the school gate though!

DS does not seemed stessed by school and seems happy to go and talk about firends at school etc but the violence has got to stop.

We did have a lot of hitting etc at home until he was around 4.5 years old but we consistently removed him from situations and said no, withdrew attention etc and eventually (slowly) he got it. Now at home we very very rarely have him hitting us, and evn if it happens he always stops himself before he hits hard. Even when playing with other children outside school this hardly ever haoppens any more. It used to happen a lot but really not any more.

It is all so puzzling!

hi there no really good advice for you im afraid but just one thought that may or may not help. My DD has adhd and has a tendency to react violently to kids. She goes to taekwondo where they are frequently impressed upon that they do not hit other children etc etc and her behaviour of this kind has greatly improved and she loves going. If she hits another child she misses a session. In her class 50% of kids that go have behaviour problems with many of them attending pupil referral units, or are in care amongst other things. However, in class all kids are perfectly behaved!One mum told me that her son was in court numerous times for this and that but seeing how disciplined and well behaved he was in the class you would never believe it. Could you perhaps find something like this for boy that may channel his energy in the right direction?

Hi,
We've had issues with behaviour as well, have tried all sorts.
We are currently giving him a treat (one small square of chocolate) every afternoon if he has not lashed out at school all day. We have a system with the school, they sens us a picture of a happy/sad face everyday depending on the behaviour.
It has not been 100% effective, but definite improvement. much much better. I wish I could say all is perfect though.

If he doesnt behave well, he doesn't get his treat and he cannot watch any tv. He doesn't have asd though, so not sure if the same will work for your ds.

I really don't have much to suggest, except that perhaps he finds it hard to process or understand emotions (both his own and others'), so is trying to figure them out.

It's not that comparable, but my ds has asd (is much younger than yours), and I can recognise some occasions when he's aggressive but is trying to figure out what he is feeling, and why. Some is self-injury (eg he bumps his head, can't really understand what has happened or process the name of the emotion he's feeling) so will lash out. Some is if someone else is upset/hurt/crying (particularly dd) - it distresses him I think because he can't really understand what she's feeling, and sometimes his response will be aggressive (or would be if I wasn't there to intervene).

Or if he's asked not to do something, he knows it will provoke a reaction so will do it again, even though he knows it will result in a consequence. He also does something similar to your ds miming aggression - will say something like "I'm going to hit dd" without actually doing it. Today we had something similar - he sort of acted out hitting dd without doing it, but to test my reaction. I gave him a warning of going to his room (we do that if he shows any aggression), which spectacularly backfired when he started going upstairs and said he wanted to go to his room

I suppose it's testing boundaries, or trying to make sense of emotions, in a kind of meandering way.

You could try role-modelling scenarios for him. Eg acting out situations that might provoke different emotions (esp anger), then model ways of dealing with it, and making sure a name is put to the emotion.

I hope the assessment next week is helpful. Please don't be fobbed off by 'wait-and-see' approach if you think you need help now.

That is ds to a T. Punishments tend to backfire in that he starts to shout and ask to be punished more or otherwise he says he wants to do whatever you have said is a punishment. i.e he swtches off the tv before you can withdraw screen time from him and pretends he doesn't want to watch.

I have had also had him shout at me to hit him in the past. I have never hit or smacked him ever so it is quite upsetting to hear him get really upset and shout "smack me, smack me" if I have told him off for something serious like hurting someone.

We have a smily, frowny face system from the teacher too but there are 4 slots in the day and every day we have at least one neutral/frowny. Smiles are good, neutrals are low level stuff like wandering around, not listening etc and frowns are for violence etc

I may well give the taekwondo a go. He often says he wants to do karate or judo but the two times we have gone to watch a class he has been adamant he does not want to have a go and has had a meltdown if we try an persuade him to try the class or if one of us joins in to encourage him. He is nothing if not uunpredictable

He does attend an afterschool club he loves which is a sort of exercise/games/sport club. I could perhaps stop him attendng that each week if he has more than one violent incident a week (I don't want to set him up to fail). I am reluctant to do that though as he behaves quite well at the club. I will wait for the assessment first and make a decision about that later

Thanks for all the advice

we used visual aids with my ds every week we would decide on a reward and find a picture to go with it we would laminate quite a few and put them in his pockets and gave school a few spares as we worked with the school to help with behaviour. we used these if we saw him getting angry, we just reminded him quite often to look in his pocket and this reminded him of the reward. if he didn't have a picture he couldn't visualise or remember what he was working for. the rewards could be baking cakes with mum or playing lego with dad etc.

my DS does this its very difficult he punishes himself telling me afterwards im a horrid boy arnt i mummy i keep reasuring him but he also will turn of the tv/computer and hide under his duvet for hours even if i try and say come down for a snack and juice he often goes to his room like a teen in temperits not like you can ground him he doesnt have friends or anything other than us at home i can say no sweets at the weekend but thats too far away to bother him i think his own guilts enough that and sending himself to his room i take it as he needs time alone to sort out his feelings some time out he often will come down later and just want a hug

I do think the asking you to smack him might be him processing the (social) information, and trying to make sense of it. If he really finds it hard to work out why he's done something 'wrong', all he can do is try and control your reaction, which is at least something he can predict. The over-compensating ('smack me') is an exaggerated form of this.

Also, the fact he is almost asking for the punishment (switching tv off) suggests that the behaviour is attention-seeking. He behaved in a way which he knew would provoke a reaction, which was what he was after in the first place.

If you can identify the function of his behaviour it will be easier to manage - I bet much of it is attention-seeking (don't mean this in a negative 'show-off' way iyswim). So, age-old adage of ignoring bad behaviour, praising the good.

The aggression towards others at school is difficult though of course. I agree with you that it wouldn't be ideal stopping him going to the club he really enjoys if he behaves well there. But you could find another activity which you think he'd enjoy (maybe a one-off treat like cinema, bowling or whatever), make a big deal of it for a few weeks to get him really excited and motivated to want to go, but he has to 'earn' going to it over the course of a week. ie collect tokens for a week of good behaviour, then he can go. So if he doesn't make it, you're not actually punishing him by removing something he's good at, but you're not giving him a reward that he potentially could earn.

I'm not trying to suggest what (if any) diagnosis your ds might get, but it might be worth looking at behaviour management suggested for ASD, as even if it's not ASD, the same techniques would work. We do ABA for ds - not suggesting you do the same for your ds, but if you can afford it, it's worth reading Robert Schramm Educate Towards Recovery, it has a great chapter on the controlling child which really resonated with me about ds.

Thanks for all the advice. I have an IEP review coming up in a couple of weeks and I really want to work with the school in implementing a reward regime that has a chance of working. We have had quite a bit of success with them at home, hence partly why the better behaviour there I believe.

In the school environment I think DS needs some strategies implemented to help him manage his stress levels. We have recently seen an OT and have a list if these to suggest to the school. But he also needs an efficient reward scheme. Although Ds does like stickers etc, the school system seems to be to give out loads of stickers and DS seems to collect his fair share but it doesn't seem to make much difference

I was thinking about asking the school to use a token system whereby he gets a token for every time he shows a particular good behaviout, e.g. have 3 things he needs to focus on Keep hands & feet to himself, showing kindness to other pupils, Do what he is told by an adult without more than one reminder

Initially he would need loads of tokens each day but gradually, these would reduce down, though the praise for each time wouldn't

He can then bring these tokens home each day and have them to spend at the weekend. They could buy things he likes like, baking with me, having me or dh tell him 3 stories in a row, 20 minutes of wrestling with me/dh, a small toy, A McD meal etc. We can decide the "pricing" of each and he can chosse what he spends them on each week.

Also I am thinking of putting each token (once it has been used for a small thing) towards a really big treat like a visit to a theme park. He would need to earn lots of tokens for that and it is likely to take a long time, but the small rewards on the way might keep him interested.

Also, using the suggestion earlier, I could get the school to show him a picture/leaflet of the theme park if he looks like he will lose his temper or do something violent as a reminder of what he is working towards.

I also think that he might lose tokens but ONLY for violent behaviour where actually hurts someone,

Dopes that seem like a good system to suggest to the school? I have a feeling they might object because Ds will be having a differnt reward system to the whole class one used for the other children but I really think he needs something tailored to him. It also needs to be consistently applied for at least a couple of months, probably longer .

Finally I thik I need to involve Ds in thinking up rewards etc. In fact we could uses the same token system at home.

When you go to CAMHS for the DISCO, ask for a referral to a clinical psychologist for aggression management. That way, whether or not there is ASD, you can work with someone who will help you make plans to help this, then evaluate and modify them as needed. Use alongside the board: combine with expert professional advice with the practical wisdom of other parents! Of course if they say no you can still do this, but it'll be you, a psychology book and MN SN.

Also bear in mind that, whatever techniques you use, it will take time for them to work. And you can get a brief rebound effect just when life seems to be improving. I used a book and course called 1,2,3 Magic which does help us, but it was hard work.

I'd second keeping him at club. He is showing the desired gentle behaviours when there, and getting a reward by enjoying his session. Maybe the more 'happy' interactions he can have, the faster he might learn behaviour skills.

Camhs are not doing the disco assessment. tnhey are worse than useless here. An nhs paediatrician is doing this but I will ask her for a referrel to a clinical psychologist and see what she says

Thanks for all the advice

The token/reward system sounds sensible to me.

Be tough with the school if they object because it's not what they use with the other kids. That's not your problem. What you need to remember is that you don't owe them for having your ds at their school, they are not doing you a favour by having him there, but that they are obliged to do everything they can to give him the support he needs to participate and access the curriculum. And if there is something that can help him, and help other children in the process (by trying to eliminate ds's aggression to others) then they should be doing everything they can to support this. Stand your ground on this.

Absolutely agree that you should give the approach some time to work, and that everyone at home and school needs to be consistent.

Is he on school action / school action +?

What about the Ed Psych? Is he/she involved? They can often make suggestions to the school about behaviour management and if they are in his IEP school should follow them even if they are different from everyone else's.
We had a lot of problems with DS' behaviour at school, particularly at Junior School, and to be honest I think it is down to the school to find strategies and for you to support the school. (I am an ex teacher).You don't have to do all the work yourself- you are clearly trying your best with him, but when he is at school you are powerless because you are not there.
When DS got to Secondary that is exactly what they said and it lifted a weight off our shoulders. He has improved a great deal.

BialystockandBloom - He is on school Action plus. His IEP this term has focussed on.

• getting him to move around after playtime and assembly without disruption and
• getting him to follow instructions with no more than one reminder.

They are supposed to be using a combination of visual timetables and social stories to help him with this. I have to say that I have seen no evidence of visual timetables. They did write a couple of social stories but I know that the teacher feels they are not very useful with DS (which I don't necerssarily disagree with tbh) and I am not sure how consistently they have been applied.

At my insistence at the last review meeting they added that they would record the number of incidents of each type in weeks 1 ,6 and 10 of this term so that they could measure any improvement. The Senco who is quite good thought this was a good idea but had to insist that the teachers could do that as they were a bit reluctant. I will check at the review that they have done this but I am not sure they have.

My main issue with the school is the constant battle for them to record things in a systematic way and also to implement things in a systematic and consistent way so that we can actually see if there is improvement over time. Otherwise it is impossible to see if Ds is making progress.

We have review meeting in 10 days so I will address all this then.

usedtobeahappycamper (Sorry to hear you don't like camping anymore!)
He was seen by an EP at the beginning of the year who wrote a 2 page report suggesting possible autism/aspergers and that visual timetables and social stories be used.
In many ways I agree that the school needs to develop strategies and there is a limited amount I can do as I am not there. It is pretty hard though when in 1.5 years of of school we have had 4 separate incidences of parents coming up to us to complain that Ds has hurt their child one time too many. On a couple of occasions the parent has been understandably very angry with us.

On top of that I know there are other less confrontational parents who are not happy with ds's propensity to lash out either. It makes for a very difficult/lonely school gate experience, though I appreciate that is less important than getting ds the help he needs..

Yes, I appreciate how hard it is at the school gate. We need a hug emoticon.
Visual timetables shouldn't be a problem. We had them in all classes and found that all the children liked them. There are quite a few available on the internet so it isn't hard to implement.

Hi, you have just described my ds to a T!! However he is now 11 and 5'7 and the hurting of other children is now a rare occurance but he does have major anger issues and challenging behaviour at school. School can't do anything with him or so they say yet he is acheiving academically. He has Aspergers, was diagnosed at aged 5. Ds big problem is he wont take responsibilty for anything and is big on justice for example if a few are talking in class and the teacher only sends him out, he refuses to go.Then the problems start when they are then having to force him out of class. We are off to see a psychologist tomorrow,but not expecting too much as the last one we saw a number of years ago told me 'you have a very challenging child' ????? Yessss thats why we are here!!!!! Sorry that i haven't been much help, i am just hoping that as he gets a bit older, the behaviour will get better!!!

Ah, the same 'responding to instructions at first request' target that is on my ds's IEP. I wonder if it comes written in to the proforma

If I was you, at the IEP review meeting I would demand that the targets are measurable, and that they are for the benefit of ds, not just keeping the peace at school. As it sounds a bit like the targets are for the benefit of the other pupils, and staff tbh.

Have a look at the SMART criteria for targets (sorry don't know any links but google it).

You are absolutely right, they should be recording all data. As you say, how can they measure progress?

Social stories so far haven't really helped my ds either, so I'm not a huge fan but that is just totally personal feeling. But if you feel they're not doing much good either, then you have to insist on something else. Real-life or video modelling role-play of scenarios definitely worth a go. It really does sound to me that ds needs helping with explaining and understanding his emotions, and how to deal with his feelings using his words.

Sorry that you are having to deal with other parents' anger. The school should absolutely be helping you sort this out - can you ask them to talk to other parents for you?